[20:32] Kipp Patton: Hello Shirly and Nordacceiod
[20:32] Nordehacedod Dot: hi
[20:32] Shirley Marquez: Hello, Kipp and Nord
[20:32] Kipp Patton: Thank you for coming
[20:32] Jack: hello Shirley, Nordehacedod and Kipp
[20:33] Kipp Patton: Hello Jack
[20:36] Jack: there are 2 notecards in the notecard dispenser that describe Xanadu a little
[20:36] Jack: have any of you heard of it before?
[20:36] Shirley Marquez: I remember reading about Xanadu way back in the day -- I've got copies of Computer Lib/Dream Machines (both editions) and Literary Machines
[20:37] Jack: great
[20:37] Nordehacedod Dot: i just did a little poking around prior to this talk.
[20:37] Shirley Marquez: but it all seemed hopeless to implement back then -- we're just finally getting powerful enough computer to think about getting his ideas to work
[20:37] Jack: I have both editions too
[20:37] Jack: yes, a lot of Ted Nelson's ideas seemed ahead of his time
[20:38] Jack: but the need for what they can do is still there
[20:39] Jack: we are beginning to see some of the features in websites such as Flickr and Myspace and blogs
[20:39] Jack: adding links to other websites and such
[20:40] Jack: and some wikis are adding versioning
[20:41] Jack: and programs such as iTunes have secure payment systems to encourage content providers to sell their music on something other than plastic
[20:41] Jack: but some of the core capabilities of Xanadu are still not here yet
[20:42] Shirley Marquez: and I think the bar has been raised too -- now people are going to want capabilities in the visual domain as well as text
[20:43] Jack: yes, I did notice in Flickr that now you can add notes right inside someone else's image
[20:44] Jack: so we are slowly seeing some of the features added in various programs running inside websites
[20:44] Shirley Marquez: ultimately, though, it would be great if it could somehow be pulled together into a unified whole
[20:44] Jack: yes, that is the goal
[20:44] Jack: it will certainly be a big project
[20:45] Shirley Marquez: I wonder if virtual environments have a place there -- maybe they will be the eventual top-level interface
[20:45] Jack: yes, definitely
[20:45] Jack: web pages are planned to be added to SL
[20:45] Shirley Marquez: one of my own thoughts on unified information is visual -- I think of it as the "World Hypermap"
[20:45] Shirley Marquez: imagine a single map that subsumes ALL maps...
[20:46] Kipp Patton: :)
[20:46] Jack: so other shared applications will surely follow
[20:46] Shirley Marquez: you could view it at any level of detail from global to street or even finer, and it would have all sorts of data
[20:47] Shirley Marquez: terrain, population, resources, and whatever else you could imagine wanting in a map
[20:47] Jack: yes, the book by David Gelernter, "Mirror Worlds" talks about such a space
[20:47] Jack: he wrote it in 1990, just before the web, but it goes far beyond what the web has so far achieved
[20:48] Kipp Patton: Interesting
[20:48] Shirley Marquez: I should have a look for that!
[20:48] Jack: Google Maps combined with Second Life, Amazon, Yahoo, Google, iTunes, the web, etc. All this is possible.
[20:49] Jack: Google Earth, I meant
[20:49] Kipp Patton: Yes, that would be great
[20:49] Shirley Marquez: you'd really want both Google Maps and Google Earth capabilities
[20:50] Jack: and if everything could be recombined into new structures, lists, documents, movies, music, with Xanadu's capability for total reuse, a new level of collaboration would be possible
[20:52] Nordehacedod Dot: How does all this jibe with the interests of our corporate masters?
[20:52] Shirley Marquez: poorly, I suspect...
[20:52] Nordehacedod Dot: hehehe
[20:52] Shirley Marquez: we'll have to move away from current notions of copyright to a new paradigm, and some people won't be happy
[20:52] Jack: yes, I envision being able to fly around like in Google Earth, drop down to a virtual environment like Second Life, shop together with others at Amazon and eBay, talk with Skype, make movies in this environment, etc.
[20:53] Kipp Patton: Just like a real world
[20:53] Kipp Patton: but in computer form
[20:53] Jack: it will take some getting used to, the copyright style of Xanadu is radical
[20:53] Shirley Marquez: if you're like Disney and want to completely control how people experience your creations, Xanadu won't be a happy place for you
[20:54] Nordehacedod Dot: Exactly, corps will want to keep the golden goose alive as long as possible.
[20:54] Kipp Patton: I don't understand what Skype really is
[20:54] Jack: no, Disney won't like it at first, but if that's where people go and spend their money, they may have to get involved
[20:54] Shirley Marquez: in user terms, Skype is just a way of making telephone calls (including conference calls) over the Internet
[20:54] Jack: Skype is a voice chat
[20:55] Kipp Patton: ok
[20:55] Kipp Patton: cheaper?
[20:55] Jack: and calling phones from your computer
[20:55] Shirley Marquez: technically, it's a bit more radical, because it uses all the Skype participants as part of a big mesh network
[20:55] Shirley Marquez: rather than sending the voice directly point-to-point
[20:55] Jack: yes, free computer to computer, and very cheap to phones
[20:55] Kipp Patton: ok
[20:55] Shirley Marquez: free to phones in the US now
[20:56] Jack: I didn't know that, I haven't used it recently
[20:56] Kipp Patton: Hello Vudu
[20:56] Shirley Marquez: new thing -- they don't promise it will last forever, but at least for the rest of 2006
[20:56] Vudu Suavage: hiya
[20:56] Jack: hi Vudu, haven't seen you in a while
[20:56] Vudu Suavage: I'll be a rather uninformed fly on the wall :)
[20:57] Vudu Suavage: hi Jack
[20:57] Kipp Patton: ok :)
[20:57] Nordehacedod Dot: I'm already there, vudu.
[20:57] Nordehacedod Dot: hehe
[20:57] Jack: flies are welcome here
[20:57] Shirley Marquez: or whatever that avatar is!
[20:57] Vudu Suavage: I suppose I'm a cthulhoid on the wall
[20:58] Jack: there are a couple of notecards in the dispenser
[20:59] Jack: the copyright system of Xanadu requires advance permission for anyone to reuse, quote, and make new versions of what you publish
[20:59] Shirley Marquez: so the Disneys of the world could simply opt out for now...
[21:00] Jack: this may sound bizarre at first, but it opens up many possibilities
[21:00] Nordehacedod Dot: and that covers different media?
[21:00] Shirley Marquez: but if the world shifts and sharing becomes expected, they might be forced to go along
[21:00] Shirley Marquez: Nelson mostly talked about text, but the principles should be extendable to other media
[21:00] Jack: for instance, every time you are quoted, and someone reads that quote, you get a small payment
[21:01] Jack: you can still give away content if you wish
[21:01] Nordehacedod Dot: interesting
[21:01] Shirley Marquez: so musicians might ENCOURAGE sampling of their work, because there would be a way to make money from it
[21:01] Nordehacedod Dot: So the system would necessarily track all _readers_ of docs?
[21:01] Nordehacedod Dot: spooky
[21:02] Jack: so if you produce a song, and someone uses part of it in a remix, you get some money every time that remix is sold
[21:02] Jack: it could be done anonymously
[21:02] Vudu Suavage: brings to mind David Brin's essays on privacy, essentially holding that so long as leaders are as transparent as the populace, the loss of privacy can be an element of progress
[21:03] Shirley Marquez: how would you prevent hacks to get around the system, I wonder? what if somebody grabs a copy of some document on his computer and then makes it available outside Xanadu?
[21:03] Nordehacedod Dot: anon with payments is a tricky business
[21:03] Jack: that would be a possibility
[21:03] Jack: the best defense is to just keep the prices low enough to discourage piracy
[21:04] Shirley Marquez: Nelson originally envisioned the system using a network of computer cafes (SilverStands), but people wouldn't put up with that now
[21:04] Vudu Suavage: we already see it in all the retail "Club Cards" tracking our purchasing patterns
[21:04] Shirley Marquez: we've all got fast computers and broadband at home, and expect any information system to work with them
[21:04] Jack: there could still be Internet Cafe's but that wouldn't be the only place to use it, any computer could be used
[21:05] Shirley Marquez: but if I can see the content on my PC, I can always circumvent any copy protection...
[21:06] Vudu Suavage: Rather than cafes, it could be a function of the library system--public libraries
[21:06] Nordehacedod Dot: and be arrested for doing it, shirley. hehe.
[21:06] Jack: with total reuse, a big group (company) could produce a huge index, and anyone could make slight modifications to that
[21:06] Shirley Marquez: they have to catch me at it first! (I'm not saying I plan to do any such thing -- just saying that it's ultimately impossible to prevent, without creating a totally Big Brother society)
[21:07] Jack: yes, libraries, cafe's, coffee shops, wherever computers are used
[21:07] Vudu Suavage: limiting points of access could go a long way toward curbing abuse
[21:07] Jack: yes, piracy will probably be impossible to stop completely
[21:07] Kipp Patton: Libraries would place a time limit for each person to use the computer(s)
[21:07] Shirley Marquez: but what I"m saying is that people won't accept a system with limited points of access!
[21:08] Vudu Suavage: wealthy people wouldn't
[21:08] Jack: no, we have long passed limited access
[21:08] Shirley Marquez: would you go to the library to use Second Life Xanadu??
[21:08] Vudu Suavage: people who rely more on the commons, for economic or ideological reasons, would
[21:08] Kipp Patton: i wouldn't
[21:09] Jack: there could still be millions of free documents and music and movies in Xanadu
[21:09] Shirley Marquez: I also wonder whether the "pay-per-view" aspect of it might meet some resistance
[21:09] Jack: but you could charge a penny to buy your song
[21:09] Shirley Marquez: it would be hard to predict what your bill would be, with so many documents involving micropayments, possibly multiple ones
[21:10] Jack: it would be buy once, view as many times as you want
[21:10] Vudu Suavage: like mass transit, students, the poor, and progressives could be the early adopters, rather than tech hobbyists
[21:10] Shirley Marquez: but imagine the Xanadu Web -- every time you click on a link, there might be a price associated with it
[21:10] Kipp Patton: true
[21:11] Jack: and you would only buy what you read, so if you only read 1/10th of a book, that is all you would pay for
[21:11] Vudu Suavage: and hopefully, in a micropayment system, you could have credits as well as debits moving around
[21:11] Shirley Marquez: but people would find it a nuisance to be prompted to pay a tenth of a cent on every link, so there would have to be some sort of threshold thing
[21:11] Jack: you could set a threshold level, "don't tell me the price unless it's over x cents"
[21:11] Nordehacedod Dot: wait a sec. know everything the viewer views, charge per view... i bet you could sell disney on this.
[21:12] Jack: yes, Disney understands money
[21:12] Shirley Marquez: they wouldn't like the fact that you could use the Mouse in a parody or a piece of negative commentary on Disney, and they would have no recourse
[21:13] Jack: that's the risk of free speech
[21:13] Nordehacedod Dot: Maybe they could charge more for viewing the uses they don't like.
[21:13] Shirley Marquez: in Nelson's vision at least, if you grant the right to reuse, you grant the right for ALL reuse -- the creator doesn't get to choose
[21:13] Nordehacedod Dot: : )
[21:14] Jack: that's right, the creator has no control over how it is reused, but gets paid for it anyway (if it's not free)
[21:14] Shirley Marquez: kind of like radio stations get to use music now under what's called a "compulsorary license" -- there are fixed payment terms, and the record company can't change them
[21:14] Jack: in Xanadu, prices would probably be set by content creators
[21:14] Shirley Marquez: and if the DJ shouts "Willie Nelson sucks!" before playing his songs, Willie still can't stop the station from licensing them
[21:15] Kipp Patton: lol
[21:15] Shirley Marquez: though I suppose he might try a libel suit
[21:16] Kipp Patton: The DJ is practicing free speech
[21:16] Jack: winning a libel suit could be hard on Xanadu, since you grant permission in advance for reuse, but for really slanderous things, it will probably happen
[21:16] Vudu Suavage: It may not be necessary for media corporations to be involved--as the diversity and connectivity of information expands, you see less broad "common culture" and more idea/image communities
[21:17] Jack: but you can alway defend yourself, since all links are two-way
[21:17] Shirley Marquez: I think media corporations are in trouble for some types of content anyway... I'm not bullish on the big record companies
[21:17] Shirley Marquez: and big book publishers aren't in a great position either
[21:17] Vudu Suavage: figures like Weebl and Bob or Strongbad will eventually have more resonance with users than Mickey Mouse
[21:17] Jack: they will change or become irrelevant
[21:18] Vudu Suavage: yes, exactly
[21:18] Shirley Marquez: film companies are a bit better off, because films are usually large collaborative works
[21:19] Nordehacedod Dot: (afk for a few)
[21:19] Jack: when I go into a big book, movie, music store, I ask myself; why is all this still sold on paper and plastic?
[21:19] Jack: it's because Xanadu still hasn't been built
[21:19] Shirley Marquez: well, the movie is still a bit bulky to download -- multiple gigabytes if you want it at DVD quality
[21:19] Vudu Suavage: well, under some circumstances, paper has more staying power than electronic storage
[21:20] Jack: yes, but full optical is very near
[21:20] Shirley Marquez: even over the typical broadband connection right now, it's a bit much, though that will change with time
[21:20] Vudu Suavage: it would be a mistake to stop producing physical records
[21:20] Jack: and very fast DSL and cable makes full screen video a reality now
[21:20] Vudu Suavage: just look at the e-voting debacle
[21:20] Shirley Marquez: but then, high-definition content is coming, and then the downloads would be even larger!
[21:20] Kipp Patton: e voting?
[21:20] Shirley Marquez: voting on touchscreen terminals or other all-electronic methods
[21:21] Kipp Patton: hmm
[21:21] Shirley Marquez: some places have used voting machines with no paper trail
[21:21] Kipp Patton: Never heard of that
[21:21] Shirley Marquez: and there has been suspicion of fraud
[21:21] Kipp Patton: e voting, could be used wrongly
[21:21] Vudu Suavage: it was quite a controversy in the U.S., particularly because of the machine manufacturer's ties to certain candidates
[21:21] Jack: you could have printouts at the time of voting
[21:22] Shirley Marquez: not to mention the fact that they apparently couldn't program their way out a paper bag
[21:22] Jack: yes, there will be fraud at times, but that's why we have investigative reporters
[21:23] Vudu Suavage: yes, Jack, that's been the compromise--e-voting with a paper trail
[21:23] Shirley Marquez: but with no paper trail, how do you prove anything??
[21:23] Kipp Patton: Right
[21:23] Jack: even with paper, fraud is possible, so you have to just audit things
[21:24] Kipp Patton: with paper, you have a chance
[21:24] Kipp Patton: with online computing
[21:24] Kipp Patton: e voting, you don't
[21:24] Jack: we have secure banking
[21:24] Vudu Suavage: well, electronic signals and code leave a trail, too, it's just easier to limit access
[21:24] Shirley Marquez: and it would probably be good to randomly count the paper in some precincts every election as a sanity check
[21:25] Jack: yes, the higher tha stakes, the more checking you have to do
[21:26] Vudu Suavage: there's always a way to fix an election--the main thing is that people have access and are paying attention
[21:26] Jack: yesterday, I was watching a movie (Catch 22) and was thinking, I would love to be able to point to any actor, and get their name and a link to the Internet Movie Data Base
[21:27] Vudu Suavage: this last US pres. election saw a blossoming of independent media sources as the mass media was shown to be moribund
[21:27] Kipp Patton: ?
[21:27] Kipp Patton: moribound?
[21:27] Jack: that will increase more and more
[21:28] Vudu Suavage: stagnant, lifeless and ineffective
[21:28] Kipp Patton: ok
[21:28] Jack: and wouldn't it be nice to have all our words in this chat linked to a dictionary, that would be easy to do
[21:29] Kipp Patton: lol
[21:29] Kipp Patton: I know , i embarrass myself at times
[21:29] Shirley Marquez: maybe a spell checker too :)
[21:29] Jack: we all don't know some words
[21:29] Jack: yes
[21:29] Kipp Patton: typo
[21:29] Vudu Suavage: moribund is an uncommon word--I just heard it used well somewhere recently
[21:30] Shirley Marquez: and there are plenty of SLers for whom English is not their native language -- imagine their struggles with it
[21:30] Kipp Patton: I agree
[21:30] Jack: electronic communication has so many possibilities for linking
[21:30] Shirley Marquez: yet another reason to resist the push for voice chat in SL
[21:31] Jack: that's why ultimately it will prevail over paper and plastic, which are completely isolated
[21:32] Shirley Marquez: plastic could in theory be linked to the internet -- I've seen DVDs with DVD-ROM sections that have internet links
[21:32] Jack: there could be a Third Life for voice chatters
[21:32] Vudu Suavage: well, eventually voice and spacial relation systems will have more connectivity, as well
[21:32] Kipp Patton: brb
[21:33] Vudu Suavage: you're also ignoring the publish-on-demand phenomenon, Jack
[21:33] Jack: yes, plastic can be linked, but it is still an expensive and slow method of distribution
[21:34] Nordehacedod Dot: humans like their stuff, and bits ain't stuff.
[21:34] Vudu Suavage: what connectivity eliminates is the need for large inventories--people will still want physical artifacts of works that have made an impression on them
[21:34] Jack: do you mean print from your computer?
[21:34] Vudu Suavage: no, publish-on-demand means that a publishing company doesn't bind the book until you've ordered it
[21:34] Vudu Suavage: rather than doing an edition of 10,000, they make you a book
[21:35] Jack: yes, that will still happen, but I have had thousands of books collecting dust, and they become more of a burden
[21:35] Kipp Patton: Jack
[21:35] Shirley Marquez: a large percentage of academic publishing has already switched
[21:35] Kipp Patton: other people "order" the book
[21:35] Kipp Patton: not you
[21:35] Kipp Patton: that is the purpose of print on demand
[21:35] Jack: I ordered a book recently that was published on demand
[21:36] Shirley Marquez: I'm a returning student, and so I have to buy lots of texts... this year, I think about half were on-demand books
[21:36] Jack: I remember at college carrying around 20 to 30 pounds of books
[21:37] Vudu Suavage: Hyperconnectivity is beginning to short-circuit economies of scale, I think
[21:37] Jack: at that wasn't even all of them
[21:37] Shirley Marquez: I could certainly stand to carry fewer books!!
[21:37] Shirley Marquez: on the other hand, I can't use my laptop in the subway while I'm riding to classes
[21:37] Kipp Patton: or maybe create thinner books
[21:38] Shirley Marquez: so until we have a better ebook reader -- and one that's cheap enough to flaunt in public -- there will still be a place for books in my studies
[21:38] Jack: yes, there is a new screen coming out that uses no power except to refresh
[21:39] Jack: there is also a $100 computer in development for the third world
[21:39] Kipp Patton: yes
[21:39] Jack: and it will cost $200 in developed countries
[21:39] Jack: that's for a color laptop
[21:39] Vudu Suavage: I think the 3rd world computer with satellite connectivity is already in limited distribution
[21:39] Shirley Marquez: I suspect we will reach a tipping point sometime in the next ten years -- and after that printed books will disappear QUICKLY
[21:40] Jack: yes
[21:40] Shirley Marquez: priced out of the market
[21:40] Jack: think about how much newspapers spend printing
[21:40] Vudu Suavage: there's a difference between periodicals and printed books
[21:40] Shirley Marquez: and carting all that paper around -- maybe even a bigger expense these days
[21:41] Jack: it would be cheaper for them to give away special handheld readers and shut down the presses
[21:41] Shirley Marquez: not yet -- the readers cost too much -- but we'll reach that point
[21:41] Jack: yes, I think within a year or two
[21:42] Vudu Suavage: I can't see printed books ever fading from human culture, but their role will be diminished as the sheer volume of information expands
[21:42] Shirley Marquez: eventually, they'll be 9.95 at the supermarket checkout, or you'll get one for free from your bank when you open an account
[21:42] Jack: yes, the curve is inevitable
[21:42] Vudu Suavage: hehe--sounds like a likely scenario, Shirley
[21:43] Jack: paper and plastic gets more expensive, electronic gets cheaper
[21:43] Shirley Marquez: I think it explains a lot about how the publishing industry has been behaving...
[21:43] Jack: it's like oil vs. solar
[21:43] Vudu Suavage: yes, Jack, but you can't take it ad absurdum
[21:43] Shirley Marquez: they're treating all but a few superstar authors badly, and not cultivating new ones
[21:43] Vudu Suavage: eventually there's a balance
[21:44] Shirley Marquez: behaving like a sunset industry with no future -- because they are!
[21:44] Shirley Marquez: I mentioned the problems of the record companies earlier -- what happens to them when iTunes gets big enough, and just starts signing artists directly??
[21:45] Jack: another comparison is film vs digital cameras
[21:45] Shirley Marquez: right now, the record company gets about 70 cents of the .99 you spend, the artist gets maybe a nickel, and Apple gets the rest
[21:45] Jack: that will happen, if not by Apple, then someone else
[21:45] Shirley Marquez: so there is a LOT of room for them to offer the artists a better deal, and still make more money
[21:46] Jack: absolutely
[21:46] Jack: competition will cause changes
[21:46] Nordehacedod Dot: I must run. thanks for the interesting conversation.
[21:46] Vudu Suavage: I don't see there being one monolithic provider, like iTunes, but rather communities of interest in which information (including music) flows more freely
[21:46] Shirley Marquez: Bye, Nordehacedod
[21:46] Nordehacedod Dot: bye
[21:47] Vudu Suavage: peace, Norde
[21:47] Jack: there will be an Independent iTunes clone, with better deals for the musicians, and Apple will have to adjust accordingly
[21:47] Vudu Suavage: there's already eMusic, and other magazine/music services
[21:48] Vudu Suavage: if your interests are electronic, jazz, and independent rock, you don't go near iTunes
[21:48] Jack: yes, it is tough to compete against big companies, you have to be really innovative
[21:49] Shirley Marquez: actually, they're somewhat better than the other big download services for those things -- but you're right, other sources are better still
[21:50] Vudu Suavage: for the cost of two albums on iTunes, I get 90 song dls on emusic
[21:50] Jack: one of the reasons I mention iTunes so much is just because I'm using a Mac, if I was using Windows, I would have more options musically
[21:50] Shirley Marquez: the whole DRM thing with downloaded music is also an issue
[21:50] Vudu Suavage: I can't have the latest Christina Aguilera album, but I'll live
[21:50] Shirley Marquez: I love eMusic too, but not all the music I want is there...
[21:51] Jack: I love to listen to audiobooks, but they cost as much on iTunes as buying the CD's, which is just crazy
[21:52] Vudu Suavage: communities of interest also play a constraining role--they allow you to explore within limited confines, which can be more manageable than the ever-expanding total mass of culture
[21:52] Jack: probably caused by publisher demands
[21:53] Jack: can you give an example Vudu?
[21:54] Vudu Suavage: well, it's the same phenomenon as social networks
[21:54] Vudu Suavage: but eMusic itself is a good example
[21:55] Vudu Suavage: iTunes is seeking a certain degree of totality--having the total catalogues of the major record companies
[21:55] Vudu Suavage: eMusic, on the other hand, is guided by editors, acting as a kind of periodical/database
[21:56] Vudu Suavage: the connectivity is shaped by individuals, both emergently in the "so and so also liked" and top-down in the articles
[21:56] Vudu Suavage: another example, non-electronic, is food networks
[21:57] Jack: what are food networks?
[21:57] Vudu Suavage: more individuated, localized ways of getting food are emerging
[21:58] Jack: an alternative to grocery stores?
[21:58] Vudu Suavage: yes, several
[21:58] Shirley Marquez: I'm fading -- I think I need to sleep
[21:58] Jack: OK, thanks for coming Shirley
[21:58] Vudu Suavage: night, Shirley
[21:58] Shirley Marquez: Good night, everybody -- thanks for having me over, Jack
[21:58] Kipp Patton: Thanks for coming
[21:59] Vudu Suavage: and then there were three
[22:00] Vudu Suavage: anyway, what I'm saying is that, while mass-culture, broadcast culture distributed on economies of scale, are still dominant, they are becoming a plurality rather than a hegemony, and I think we'll see them disintegrate further
[22:00] Kipp Patton: probly
[22:01] Vudu Suavage: even within the mass culture, you see consumption patterns based on social networks
[22:01] Jack: yes
[22:01] Vudu Suavage: but the more interesting phenomenon is entirely separate networks emerging outside, or from beneath the mass culture
[22:02] Vudu Suavage: that's what I mean by communities of interest
[22:02] Jack: yes, there is a website called Frappr
[22:03] Jack: that allows you to locate on a map of the world all those who share similar interests
[22:03] Kipp Patton: That is interesting
[22:03] Vudu Suavage: well, I think I shall call it a night, as well
[22:03] Jack: thanks for coming Vudu
[22:03] Kipp Patton: ok
[22:03] Jack: May I have your permission to post this discussion on the hyperworlds website?
[22:03] Kipp Patton: Thanks for coming Vudu
[22:03] Vudu Suavage: it was an interesting discussion--thx for hosting, Jack
[22:04] Vudu Suavage: my permission? certainly
[22:04] Jack: thanks
[22:04] Jack: this has been one of our livelier discussions
[22:04] Vudu Suavage: good night
[22:04] Kipp Patton: :D
[22:05] Jack: good night and thanks for all your observations