Jack Sondergaard: hi
Results Tiki: hello, I was surprised and pleased to see this event in time.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have been having these meetings off and on for a while
Jack Sondergaard: have you heard of Xanadu before?
Results Tiki: yes, I was a volunteer with Doug Engelbart for over a year.
Jack Sondergaard: great
Results Tiki: I just got into Second Life and am working on an IBIS implementation
Jack Sondergaard: do you know Alan Bomberger?
Results Tiki: The name doesn't ring a bell.
Jack Sondergaard: he was a beta tester of NLS
Results Tiki: oh yeah
Jack Sondergaard: and wrote a similar program called Thinker
Jack Sondergaard: I have been a beta tester of it since 1990
Results Tiki: nice, googling now
Jack Sondergaard: It is a hypertext outliner
Results Tiki: Nice
Jack Sondergaard: first on the Amiga, then Mac, then Windows, now Java
Results Tiki: I'll have to install the trial later.
Jack Sondergaard: what is IBIS?
Results Tiki gave you SL-IBIS Project Status.
Results Tiki: Jeff Conklin worked with Doug years ago
Results Tiki: He's a consultant now in California.
Results Tiki: Doug is in Meno Park. I live in the Bay Area too.
Jack Sondergaard: his name sounds familiar
Jack Sondergaard: I have been using several mindmappers lately
Jack Sondergaard: and was hoping someone could make one inside SL
Jack Sondergaard: I had a dream years ago of text in a library floating through the air, and all the links being text branches streaming off the sides of it
Jack Sondergaard: you could grab any of them and make them the main stream, backtrack, etc.
Results Tiki: That sounds nice. It's pretty easy to extrapolate a 3D implementation of what I've seen in 2D, and easy to think about ways to approach it. In building IBIS I'm working the APIs to try to actually get something usable implemented.
Jack Sondergaard: I'm also using a beta version of a metadata browser on my Mac
Jack Sondergaard: it's called Nucle, but is very fragile at this point
Results Tiki: I plan to get back on the Mac platform someday, I've been on Linux and Windows for too long.
Jack Sondergaard: but most of the mindmappers I have tried are static, which is OK for output to print or the web, but sort of limiting for large link sets
Results Tiki: I can imagine.
Jack Sondergaard: OSX is extremely stable, which is what I like best about it
Jack Sondergaard: my favorite mindmapper is OmniGraffle, which allows you to first add the nodes, then link them in any way, it's not strictly hierarchial
Jack Sondergaard: a related project of Xanadu is zigzag, which is sort of a dynamic n-dimensional linked structure
Jack Sondergaard: and a variant of it is called gzz
Jack Sondergaard: it's a lot of fun to play with
Results Tiki: ah yes, it's been awhile since I've been researching them. I'm dusting away the cobwebs about Udanax, ZigZag, etc.
Jack Sondergaard: the plan is to use zigzag to select sets of links, versions, formats, and views to display in Xanadu
Jack Sondergaard: the demo docs of Udanax Green code are very good, also the dissertation by Portia Sisley
Results Tiki: great, I forget what the demo was named but I played with a DOS or Linux version of ZigZag once.
Results Tiki: I think it was the demo diskette
Jack Sondergaard: yes, that was a primitive version of it, I ran it once from a floppy on a PC, it had linux on the floppy too
Jack Sondergaard: it was a good demo of the concept of n-dimensions, although it lacked the selectable views found in gzz
Jack Sondergaard: here's the other link I was looking for, that is a good intro to Xanadu: http://www.caplet.com/papers/open-media.html
Results Tiki: Nice, thank you.
Jack Sondergaard: I like the link type icons in the demo you mention: http://www.svpal.org/~grantbow/demo.jpg
Jack Sondergaard: that's an excellent way to show them
Results Tiki: Yes, that's a nice screenshot of Compendium's demo and something I'm working to replicate in-world.
Jack Sondergaard: I will definitely check it out
Jack Sondergaard: I work at WalMart and they certainly have some wicked problems with communication and resource allocation
Results Tiki: lol, I bet
Results Tiki: logistics issues are non-trivial
Jack Sondergaard: yes, before going to work there, I thought they would have things like that under control, but not so
Jack Sondergaard: I look forward to dialog mapping discussions in SL
Jack Sondergaard: in 3D
Results Tiki: I'm working on the scripts to do the linking now. I have demo objects talking and now I just need to figure the best way to work with the vectors in rezzing the arrow itself.
Results Tiki: Then I need to think about keeping that arrow updated somehow as objects move
Jack Sondergaard: one thing I have noticed that is lacking in all the mindmappers is nodes which include scrollable text
Results Tiki: good point
Jack Sondergaard: the closest thing I have seen to it is CosmicBook: http://xanadu.com/cosmicbook
Results Tiki: I want to address that in a couple ways in my project. First - floating titles with line breaks and second, access to more robust content.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, OmniGraffle has multiline nodes and even tables
Jack Sondergaard: It can output image maps for publishing on the web, although I would like to see Flash output too
Jack Sondergaard: I have spent a lot of time trying to learn Flash, but it is quite difficult, probably because I have used much better animation software in the past
Results Tiki: Hehe, have you worked with SL animation yet?
Jack Sondergaard: I looked at LSL a bit, but never really learned it
Jack Sondergaard: I'm trying to learn Python now
Jack Sondergaard: when it comes to programming, I am a slow learner
Jack Sondergaard: I started trying to learn C, C++, assembly, Java, all those eluded me
Jack Sondergaard: but I think I can learn Python and Rebol
Results Tiki: Python is a great language IMHO.
Results Tiki: I've used about a dozen languages professionally so picking up LSL is pretty quick for the amount of time I've invested. Workin in 3D is a new challenge.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I love doing 3D animation, I learned Lightwave a long time ago, and Cinema 4D, but have forgotten how to use them, since I haven't done it regularly
Jack Sondergaard: I would like to see some more advanced 3D modeling tools in SL
Jack Sondergaard: nurbs, etc.
Results Tiki: the animations in this furniture is quite nice
Results Tiki: *are
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I noticed that
Jack Sondergaard: there is a 3D modeler I downloaded that can create objects and animations for SL, but I haven't used it yet. It's now open source, som maybe some of it could be incorporated into SL itself
Jack Sondergaard: Results, have you found a way to connect objects in SL with some kind of visible lines that stay connected when the objects move?
Results Tiki: that's the part of my discussion mapping project I'm working on now.
Jack Sondergaard: I'm wondering if flexible prims would work
Results Tiki: I don't know yet, I'm working with standard prims so far.
Jack Sondergaard: I would also like to see some mathematics visualization in SL
Jack Sondergaard: I saw a video years ago called "Only Zooms" that had a lot of 3D fractal animations
Results Tiki: Interesting, I haven't seen that. I did read about the graphing calculator project at Apple. It's quite a story how that software was created.
Results Tiki: Actually I saw a talk by the developer on video.google.com
Jack Sondergaard: and animation of hypercubes and n-dimensional mathetical structures
Jack Sondergaard: yes
Jack Sondergaard: it's quite a story and quite a program
Jack Sondergaard: I have used the Amiga a lot, and was a software developer on it, so I have seen some real pioneering work done in 3D
Results Tiki: The Amiga was a great machine.
Jack Sondergaard: some of the programs and hardware for it still amaze me
Results Tiki: Like some of the ideas from Ted Nelson and Doug Engelbart and others still haven't truly been realized.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, they were all ahead of their time in many ways
Results Tiki: It takes alot of skill to actually implement something in those directions.
Jack Sondergaard: definitely, I know that from working so much testing Thinker
Results Tiki: A challenge of being interested in these things is the plethora of point solutions to learn about.
Jack Sondergaard: what are point solutions?
Results Tiki: partial implementations that address only an aspect or two of the big issues.
Jack Sondergaard: oh, yes
Jack Sondergaard: that's the hard part, getting all the key features put together and working
Jack Sondergaard: but it takes time, and the development of better tools
Jack Sondergaard: like what Babbage was trying to do, but the technology wasn't up to his conceptual requirements yet
Results Tiki: Yes, I can get frustrated in waiting for better solutions in part because I understand some of the problems pretty well.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, one thing I see lacking in languages, is easier ways of integrating text editing into programs
Jack Sondergaard: it's now easy to lay out an interface, but to make it do the really useful transformations of text and other media is still hard
Results Tiki: There's a nice tool in python to help with that... one sec
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I haven't gotten far enough into Python yet to know what all it can do
Jack Sondergaard: I'm slowly working my way through "Core Python" now
Results Tiki: Have you seen http://sourceforge.net/projects/boa-constructor/ ?
Jack Sondergaard: I will look into that, I have used some programs that use wxpython
Jack Sondergaard: one problem I found was that some python programs expect an exact version of Python or WX, and if you have the latest versions of those installed, you are out of luck
Jack Sondergaard: I tried to get SPE running, but I was too up to date to run it
Results Tiki: yes, it's a huge headache. I had to have a couple different machines running simultaneously to be effective when I was deep into it.
Jack Sondergaard: one of the things I like about Rebol is it's ease of installation
Jack Sondergaard: you download one file, and you are good to go
Jack Sondergaard: but I have sometimes spent days downloading and installing all the parts of Python I needed for something
Jack Sondergaard: although I love the language itself
Results Tiki: Yeah
Jack Sondergaard: that seems to be the biggest problem with open source, is keeping all the parts of a project coordinated
Results Tiki: Yes, the packaging systems go a very long way, but there are still problems. I worked with SuSE for a few years before they were bought by Novell. I am also a retired Debian Developer.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, Apple has done a great job of hiding the details of Unix from end users, although developers still have to know them
Results Tiki: I'm looking forward to playing with my first OSX machine. I've been away from the Mac for too long.
Jack Sondergaard: OSX is a lot different than the older versions of the system, very stable, but I still don't like the Dock
Jack Sondergaard: it gets in my way, no matter which side I put it on
Results Tiki: hehe
Jack Sondergaard: I prefer the OS9 way of accessing programs from a drop down menu
Jack Sondergaard: I have a program to do that on OSX installed, but the dock is still there too
Jack Sondergaard: but I often go for months without rebooting, and then only for major upgrades of the OS or security
Results Tiki: Nice. I just noticed that Thinker was last updated 02/26/03. I don't think I will install it.
Jack Sondergaard: the Java version is newer than that
Jack Sondergaard: but the newest version might not be on the website
Jack Sondergaard: since it is still in beta
Results Tiki: ah
Jack Sondergaard: try emailing Alan Bomberger if you want a newer version
Jack Sondergaard: I just noticed that in my inventory I have a skyscraper
Results Tiki: lol
Results Tiki: I noticed this page just now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_map
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I used to draw mindmaps on paper back in the early 70's
Jack Sondergaard: they were called cluster diagrams then
Jack Sondergaard: that's how I took all my notes, I still have thousands of them on tiny Rolodex cards
Jack Sondergaard: in nearly microscopic writing
Results Tiki: hehe
Results Tiki: so you have these meetings regularly?
Jack Sondergaard: I have been having them nearly every Saturday lately
Jack Sondergaard: and sometimes on Mondays or Wednesdays, since I have those days off
Results Tiki: Would you like to see my static IBIS demo?
Jack Sondergaard: definitely
Results Tiki: ok
Results Tiki gave you Bylot (65, 3, 96).
Results Tiki: sorry about the permissions thing, I'm borrowing this land
Results Tiki: the demo is right over here
Can't enter parcel, not on access list.
Jack Sondergaard: very nice
Results Tiki: it's the same demo from Compendium
Results Tiki: that wood box and ball are my attempt at the dynamic linking, I just got the chat going so far.
Jack Sondergaard: what kind of scripting does it have?
Results Tiki: the static demo has none
Results Tiki gave you ts.
Results Tiki gave you bs.
Results Tiki: that should be the target script and base script :)
Results Tiki: for the ball and box respectively
Results Tiki: The other work I did was to get one object to turn into several.
Jack Sondergaard: that is interesting
Results Tiki: I just change the size of one prim and rez/derez the children
Results Tiki: the communications can be tricky
Results Tiki: try clicking it, I haven't had any testers yet :)
Results Tiki: lol
Jack Sondergaard: I derezzed it
Results Tiki: try the Node submenu
Results Tiki: cool
Jack Sondergaard: that is impressive
Results Tiki: thanks, I've been on the lslwiki alot lately :)
Jack Sondergaard: you could make some really big diagrams in SL
Results Tiki: I think you should be able to take a copy of this to play with
Results Tiki: There are limits due to chat distances and such
Jack Sondergaard: yes
Results Tiki: and the 10 meter prim rez distance limit for the links
Jack Sondergaard: is it alright with you if I post the chat log on the hyperworlds website?
Results Tiki: I need to get the renaming down so all nodes don't rename at the same time, lol
Results Tiki: uh...
Results Tiki: I guess so. That's a surprise
Jack Sondergaard: sorry, I should have asked at the beginning instead
Results Tiki: where do you post them?
Jack Sondergaard: hyperworlds.org, the website I maintain about Xanadu (mostly)
Results Tiki: Yeah, but it's a big site and I didn't see a place for transcripts anywhere
Jack Sondergaard: hyperworlds.org/index.html#jackseay
Jack Sondergaard: down from there about 10 lines
Results Tiki: fyi, in your FAQ I ran it gave me a dialog box saying you didn't paste all of the code.
Jack Sondergaard: Oh, I probably have a link to a different web host my faq used to be on
Jack Sondergaard: I will look at it
Results Tiki: I see the transcripts
Jack Sondergaard: OK, I see the popup about the Faq, it does refer to an old domain I had before
Results Tiki: k, cool
Jack Sondergaard: I will probably just remove it, since I think it is all said elsewhere on the website
Results Tiki: ok. Oops, I left in a debug message
Jack Sondergaard: well, I better get a little more rest before work
Results Tiki: alright, thanks for having the meeting, I enjoyed it.
Jack Sondergaard: thanks for coming, I will schedule one for next Saturday too
Results Tiki: ok
Jack Sondergaard: I will download the Compendium software Monday, it's not available until then