May 5, 2007
mindserfer Hilbert: hola, jack.
Jack: are you here for the discussion?
mindserfer Hilbert: xanado and xana don't, I'm keeping an open mind.
Jack: well, I guess we can get started
Jack: have any of you read about Xanadu before?
Sylvester Bleac: nope
Jack: I will summarize the main features quickly
Jack: Xanadu was designed back in the 1960's by Ted Nelson, but has still not been created except as partial or incomplete programs
Jack: it is hypertext with 2-way links, meaning that anyone can create links between documents, and the links will be seen in both documents
mindserfer Hilbert: so versions of pages need unique names, any progress on a standard for that.
Jack: there have been a few attempts at it, Jeff Rush has written a server, I met him last year, but no front-end for it yet
mindserfer Hilbert: what is the server written in? python, perl, php?
Jack: links in Xanadu would also be typed, so you could sort and filter by the kind of link you are interested in
mindserfer Hilbert: correct answer ! ;-)
Jack: most of the current projects are in Python
Kipp Patton: :)
mindserfer Hilbert: the snake is taking over ;-) sweet lang.
Jack: yes, it is
Sylvester Bleac: :)
Jack: I am hoping that in the near future, some kind of test of it could be done inside Second Life
Sylvester Bleac: Great discussion
Sylvester Bleac: I am really proud of you guys!!!
mindserfer Hilbert: VMS from digital had an auto versioning facility, ahead of its time.
Jack: links are not imbedded in documents, but are separate, and overlayed as needed
Jack: like layers in a paint program
Jack: same for formatting text
Jack: Ted Nelson also designed a related program called zigzag
mindserfer Hilbert: be nice if there was a time based versioning, every minute might be good time resolution.
Jack: it is similar to a mindmapping program
Jack: but dynamic, changing as each node becomes the focus
mindserfer Hilbert: animation would be automatic.
mindserfer Hilbert: just scale it up.
Jack: yes, versioning would probably be user adjustable
Jack: so each "save" could be a new version, or each change made
mindserfer Hilbert: the privacy issues are tricky, nice to have a layer of privacy with ownership like here is sl.
mindserfer Hilbert: infinite undo, yum.
Jack: yes, SL has some of the concepts of Xanadu
mindserfer Hilbert: would others have access to infinite undo durring editing? or only the owner of the "do"s
Jack: like the metadata in objects, showing both who created it and who owns it now, and what rights you have to copy and modify it
mindserfer Hilbert: that might be an issue with things like process pattents.
Jack: each version is kept, not over-writing previous ones
Jack: the copyright structure in Xanadu is an interesting one
Jack: before publishing anything In Xanadu, you give anyone permission to quote you anywhere at any length
Sylvester Bleac: What is this about?
Jack: you can choose to give it away or sell it, using a micropayment system
mindserfer Hilbert: In the real word, copy right is maintained by immune systems wrapped around cells nuclii.
Jack: a hypertext system called Xanadu
mindserfer Hilbert: google: project xanadu
Jack: I maintain a website called hyperworlds.org where you can read a lot about it
mindserfer Hilbert: thinking about how information is maintained in the natural world. wondering if there are any lessons to learn.
mindserfer Hilbert: genetic information. that is.
Jack: there might be something there, I'm not sure yet
Jack: all programs are encoded in a variety of ways
Jack: and encapsulated to protect data usually, sometimes encrypted
Jack: email is poorly protected, which is why it is such a mess
mindserfer Hilbert: dna is like source, and compiled into proteins by ribosomes, the proteins then protect the source code. with bones and teeth.
Jack: Xanadu would need to encrypt and/or authenticate all data
mindserfer Hilbert: but protein is shared between symbiotes like bees and trees.
Jack: data is often shared between programs by message passing, object sharing, etc.
mindserfer Hilbert: are the needed services monolithic or can the services like security, connectivity, and data storage be provided by competive service provideres in the system?
Sylvester Bleac: keep the discussion interesting for all 4
Jack: probably at first it would be one server until the bugs get worked out, that depends on the skill of the programmer
Jack: but I forsee several types of servers getting used
Jack: for instance, a special server for handling micro-payment distribution
Jack: there could be others for caching
Jack: or that could be peer to peer
mindserfer Hilbert: the future of currency may be some form of advertizing is google is right.
Jack: advertizing will be used
mindserfer Hilbert: perhaps measued in micro click throughs or something.
Jack: but each person should be able to decide if they want ads
mindserfer Hilbert: but that may need some type of authenication.
Jack: or want to pay a small fee to see a movie ad free, for example
mindserfer Hilbert: sure, each should choose.
mindserfer Hilbert: but click -thoughs could be the same for profit or non-profit,
mindserfer Hilbert: a unified currency.
Jack: yes, micropayments would be purchased using any currency
Jack: and any content could be purchased in part
mindserfer Hilbert: I sure hope no-one cracks sl-s micro payments, they are quite handy.
Jack: so if you read 2 chapters of a book, that's all you pay for
Jack: incremental purchase is a necessity, when anything can be quoted at any length anywhere
mindserfer Hilbert: that would be nice. a penny a page, or less.
Sylvester Bleac: easy talking
Jack: so if I make my own movie, and show 5 minutes of Star Wars in it, those watching my movie only pay for 5 minutes of Star Wars, not the whole movie
Jack: but if they have already bought the whole movie, they would not pay for that segment again, not ever
mindserfer Hilbert: It would nice if everything had a price that exponentially decayed into public domain over 75 year or so.
mindserfer Hilbert: premier movie, dollar movie, dvd rental, public domain... etc.
Jack: this kind of a payment system has actually been accomplished for text
mindserfer Hilbert: or 10 years or less.
Jack: yes, I hope the public domain time period could be reduced quited a bit
mindserfer Hilbert: I dislike the extension of copyright to over 75 years. it hassels the public domain.
Jack: what the Xanadu server(s) do is track and distribute content, links, versions, micropayments, formatting, and these would be combined in a wide variety of programs runnning on users computers
Jack: so it could look as simple as plain text all the way up to something that far exceeds SL
mindserfer Hilbert: sounds like a heavey DRM that is wanting to serve up bugs.
mindserfer Hilbert: ethernet won over token ring because it was so simple.
mindserfer Hilbert: but it would be nice to give writer's and programmers their due.
Jack: there would still be the option for free content, and the content that is not free is not sold at a set price, so a musician could sell their song for 1/100 of a cent if they wanted to
Kipp Patton: getting to dark in here
Jack: turn on you room lights Kipp :)
mindserfer Hilbert: world->force sun->sun rise.
Kipp Patton: i mean here in your house
Kipp Patton: lol
mindserfer Hilbert: you have the power in your own hands.
Jack: how's that
Jack: many of the Web 2.0 features are variations of the ideas from Xanadu
mindserfer Hilbert: like multiway links.
Jack: you can put content from YouTube, Amazon, and others companies almost anywhere on the web now
mindserfer Hilbert: every conversation should automatically be recorded in sl.
Kipp Patton: there we go
Jack: visible links would be nice, especially if you have a large screen or several
mindserfer Hilbert: we sould also have a go back button.
mindserfer Hilbert: to the last place we came from.
mindserfer Hilbert: visible links., between pages.
Jack: yes, there are many things like that I would like to have in SL, but you can turn on logging
mindserfer Hilbert: oh nice.
Jack: so all the chat where you are involved is saved automatically
Jack: in a mindmap, small bits of text and pictures are linked by lines, imagine those becoming windows with books, movies, music players, paint programs, 3D tools, and many more
Jack: with historical backtracking allowed to any length of time into the past
Sylvester Bleac: come on
Jack: and forward history to show planned events in the future
Jack: hard drives are cheap now
Jack: so saving everything you do is not so far-fetched
Kipp Patton: I'm planning on building my own computer this year
Jack: cool, make it a super-computer
Kipp Patton: super computer hmm
Kipp Patton: brb
Jack: the super-computer of today will be the desktop of 5 years from now
mindserfer Hilbert: mr Moore takes a bow.
Jack: yes, thank you Mr. Moore for your prediction coming true
mindserfer Hilbert: hyperworlds.org thanks for the link
mindserfer Hilbert: interesting stuff.
Jack: I'm listening to an audio book now called "The World is Flat", wow, what a book
mindserfer Hilbert: I read it, quite nice book.
mindserfer Hilbert: and pro-gnu too. ;-)
Jack: I'm less than half way done now, but have learned a lot already
Jack: it is answering a lot of the questions I have had for the past few years about the changes taking place in the world because of the Internet and fiber optic cable
mindserfer Hilbert: I wish that author would run for congress or something.
Jack: hopefully a lot of congress-people will read it
Jack: he should probably keep researching and writing more
Jack: we are in the middle of some radical changes in the world and there's no putting the worms back in the can now
mindserfer Hilbert: true that.
Kipp Patton: so true
Jack: I think it will be a much better century than the last one
Sylvester Bleac: hmmmm I do not know
Kipp Patton: i wonder
Jack: we have the tools to bring people into much closer communication, and that should keep us from making the same mistakes, but we will have to be careful not to make major new types of blunders
mindserfer Hilbert: very nice chating mr xondergaard.
Jack: I find that the more I learn, the less scary the changes are
mindserfer Hilbert: yes, new blunders that are technologieclly accecelerated.
Jack: well, I need to be going, got some errands to run in the "real" world
Jack: thanks for the great discussion
Kipp Patton: Thanks for coming you all