[20:36] Sheve McNally: Hi
[20:37] You: hi
[20:37] Sheve McNally: nobody else here?
[20:37] You: are you here for the discussion?
[20:37] Sheve McNally: yep
[20:37] You: it's usually a small crowd
[20:38] Sheve McNally: Xanadu is an obscure topic
[20:38] You: yes
[20:38] Sheve McNally: Surprised, I thought it was long forgotten
[20:38] You: over here is a notecard dispenser
[20:38] Sheve McNally: Your house?
[20:38] You: with a small summary
[20:38] You: I bought it
[20:39] Sheve McNally: nice place
[20:39] You: I just uploaded a diagram I have been working on
[20:39] Sheve McNally: the '2keys'?
[20:39] You: http://hyperworlds.org/mindmaps/GodUniverseEverythingElse/Philosophy.html
[20:40] Sheve McNally: can you view URLs within SL?
[20:40] You: the only link on it so far is the "Fields of Knowledge"
[20:40] You: so far all I have seen is the "Help" in SL
[20:41] You: it seems to be in a browser
[20:41] Sheve McNally: yes, but have not found any way of browsing within SL.. too bad, you think they would allow that
[20:42] You: they are probably still working on the code to make sure it's "safe"
[20:42] Sheve McNally: So Xanadu... I thought the web was the realization of Ted Nelson's vision
[20:43] Sheve McNally: What remains to be done? He wanted hypertext, we have it in the web
[20:43] You: a great deal
[20:44] You: the links in web pages are one way, you can link to another page, but someone starting there will not see your link
[20:45] You: there are ways to find links to a page but it is not built in
[20:45] Sheve McNally: yes, google can show us that
[20:46] You: and links break for a variety of reasons, file and directory name changes, deletions
[20:46] Sheve McNally: certainly. Xanadu would have no such problems of course :)
[20:46] You: and version comparison is not easy
[20:47] Sheve McNally: Is anybody still working on Xanadu?
[20:47] You: yes, links would not be based on locations in a file structure
[20:47] You: yes, I got an email from Ted Nelson today
[20:47] Sheve McNally: really? wow
[20:47] You: he said he expected to have something to show by the end of the year
[20:47] Sheve McNally: what is he doing, what is he working on
[20:47] Sheve McNally: good for him
[20:48] You: there is a project called Transliterature that is working on it a little at a time
[20:49] Sheve McNally: I will look for that on the web
[20:49] You: I have been reading about the Xanadu data structure this past week, it was fairly complicated
[20:49] You: and the new design is simpler
[20:50] You: so it should be easier to write front-end software for it
[20:50] Sheve McNally: interesting. just imagine if Nelson had managed to get it up and running before TIm Berners-Lee had got the web started
[20:50] You: yes
[20:51] Sheve McNally: so do you write code yourself, Jack?
[20:51] You: I have started reading "Weaving The Web" by Berners-Lee
[20:52] You: no, I'm just an amateur reporter, trying to get the concepts out there
[20:52] Sheve McNally: haha
[20:52] You: Tim wanted the web to be fully editable, but the programmers didn't want to take the time to implement it in the browsers
[20:53] You: I have started using Amaya, and editable browser
[20:54] Sheve McNally: Yeah, but you look at Wikipedia and all the other wikis, they have had great success with user-created content, but some problems too. You need a social structure in place to encourage good editing and discourage bad editing
[20:54] You: I'm using it to read a Rebol language tutorial
[20:54] You: if I want to make a change to the code before copying it, I just do it, just like in a word processor
[20:55] You: it is quite a switch
[20:55] Sheve McNally: interesting, what did you say it is called?
[20:55] You: Amaya
[20:55] Sheve McNally: Amaya. Does it run under Windows?
[20:55] You: Wikis are editable, but also have many differences from Xanadu
[20:56] You: I think it does, I'm using it on Mac, and I know it runs on Linux
[20:58] You: Wikis tend to publish by majority consensus, where Xanadu would allow any minority to have a version presenting it's viewpoint
[20:59] Sheve McNally: But then you have no consistent point of view, no consensus. That's what the wikipedians fight about all the time
[20:59] You: yes, exactly
[20:59] Sheve McNally: For controversial topics, each group wants its view to be presented as ... normative
[21:00] You: the emphasis in Xanadu is allowing a fair and complete presentation of all viewpoints
[21:00] Sheve McNally: Those terms, "fair and complete" are ...
[21:01] Sheve McNally: subject to much discussion in wikipedia.
[21:01] Sheve McNally: The discussions are often more interesting than the articles
[21:01] Sheve McNally: abortion, arab-israeli conflict, george bush, war in iraq, etc. etc. etc.
[21:01] You: since everyone could create their own version of anything, they could write it to be "fair and complete" from their viewpoint
[21:02] Sheve McNally: couldn't they edit someone else's version?
[21:02] You: no
[21:02] Sheve McNally: i thought that's what Xanadu was supposed to be about?
[21:03] You: when you edit anything in Xanadu, it becomes a new version, and is automatically linked to the original
[21:03] You: the original is set is stone, all versions are kept
[21:03] Sheve McNally: A hall of mirrors ... hundreds of versions, each may only be different except for a comma or a typo
[21:04] You: yes, there would be indexes created to make navagation easier
[21:04] Sheve McNally: Then people would just argue about what makes a unique article, vs. a version of another article
[21:05] Sheve McNally: index of a zillion versions of a single page or topic...
[21:05] Sheve McNally: how would you differntiate them? by date, byte count.... not useful to users
[21:05] You: that would only happen for very popular pages
[21:05] Sheve McNally: maybe...
[21:06] You: you would have methods to indicate versions created by the original author, and also those endorsed by him or her
[21:07] Sheve McNally: So the original author is more authoritative than subsequent authors?
[21:07] Sheve McNally: not necessarily so
[21:07] You: and there would be filters to allow you to ignore people with little of value to say
[21:07] Sheve McNally: yes, indeed. Slashdot does some of that
[21:08] You: not necessarily more authoritive, but you should at least know who creates each version
[21:08] Sheve McNally: yes
[21:08] Sheve McNally: Jack, I must go
[21:08] Sheve McNally: It has been nice talking to you about this
[21:09] You: OK, thanks for coming, may I publish this on the website?
[21:09] Sheve McNally: um, sure