StarJunky Fermi: Hi Jack
Jack Sondergaard: hi
StarJunky Fermi: Did you get some new artwork?
Jack Sondergaard: it's been here a couple of weeks
StarJunky Fermi: ahh - I've missed the last several mtgs
StarJunky Fermi: I saw that you and Jeffronius Barr had a good discussion
Jack Sondergaard: I just got the last meeting posted on the website yesterday
StarJunky Fermi: k - brb, more coffee...
Jack Sondergaard: OK
Jack Sondergaard: me too
Jack Sondergaard: hi Naomi
Naomi Nihilist: Hello :)
StarJunky Fermi: Hi Naomi
Jack Sondergaard: are you here for the Xanadu discussion?
Naomi Nihilist: How are you both doing?
Jack Sondergaard: good
Naomi Nihilist: I just finished reading the page, it's an amazing concept
StarJunky Fermi: recovering from the Flu
StarJunky Fermi: not contagious thru SL thank god...
Jack Sondergaard: flu isn't fun
Jack Sondergaard: yes, that's true
Naomi Nihilist: No it isn't.. hope you are resting over there :)
StarJunky Fermi: yeah, not had it years, this case knocked me low
StarJunky Fermi: thanks - I'm much better
Quine Mondrian: Hello.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I was just reading some of the web page yesterday, just to re-familiarize myself with what I had written
Jack Sondergaard: I recently found the E language, written by Mark Miller, and maybe some others. Mark had been working on Xanadu for years
Jack Sondergaard: E is written both in Java and Lisp
Jack Sondergaard: and is a very secure message passing language
Jack Sondergaard: every program in it has to specifically be given permission by the user to have access to anything, so it can't be used to create viruses an such
StarJunky Fermi: interesting, Jack - I'm reading about it now...
Jack Sondergaard: and all messages are automatically transmitted strong encrypted
Naomi Nihilist nods, listening
StarJunky Fermi: designed for distributed computing at the most fundamental level
Jack Sondergaard: http://www.erights.org/elang/index.html
Jack Sondergaard: yes
StarJunky Fermi: and dynamically typed!
StarJunky Fermi: Do you see parts of Xanadu being implemented in E?
Jack Sondergaard: I don't know how I managed to not find out about it until now, although I did know about EROS and KeyKOS
Jack Sondergaard: EROS stands for Extremely Reliable Operating System
Naomi Nihilist grins
Naomi Nihilist: Seems to the point - I have to admit the part that interested me was the potential for learning, connecting, finding patterns in things, the sort of education wiki tries to offer, but it's definitely got it's flaws. The idea though, of content that couldn't be changed without permission, and credit given is also wonderful, since so much of the web is really just bits and pieces people slap up at random, with no thought to the authors really, or content creators.
Jack Sondergaard: and now it has been discontinued, but the code base is going into CapROS and Coyotos
Jack Sondergaard: yes, keeping links to origins of content is a key issue in Xanadu
Jack Sondergaard: and is important in making a radical amount of reuse possible, while still protecting the rights of the original creators
Naomi Nihilist nods
Naomi Nihilist: Personally credit is all I'd ever want, money would not been an issue, even if I did get published, I believe in free information... but not so free the creator is distanced from the works completely. And, I do love feedback. :)
Jack Sondergaard: if the publishing of the content now still on paper and plastic is going to be online, there has to be serious advantages to it in a new form
Naomi Nihilist: Seems that is what is keeping it down really, I know S. King tried it, and had decent success, but not as much as a book sale could offer.
Jack Sondergaard: it needs to be more than just static PDF and similar formats
Naomi Nihilist: PDF is a pain for me to read, and it's really clunky to navigate, even with the offer of 'chapters' in some of them.
Jack Sondergaard: Fictionwise has published a large number of books online, but many of them put huge restrictions on being able to reuse the content in any way at all, sometimes not even allowing your computer to read it aloud
Naomi Nihilist laughs and shakes her head a bit
Naomi Nihilist: That seems extreme.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, it's fine for using to print out things on paper, but is far from ideal as an online format
Naomi Nihilist nods
Jack Sondergaard: and I think text format that properly display math equations is also important for math literacy to become more widespread
Naomi Nihilist: I'd love something with a more book feel, not really as in flashy page turning graphics, or sounds made - that stuff bugs me, but maybe it flowing easier, loading before so there is no delay for the next page or sub-link of the main content.. and yes, I've noticed how formulas look online - but will admit my understanding is limited basic, get by in life math - I do see the need though, and even wish there were better ways for me to improve that online for myself and the world at large.
Jack Sondergaard: and if you have a form of hypertext that supports anyone adding links to existing documents, then definitions and explanations of math documents can be added for educational purposes
Naomi Nihilist nods
Jack Sondergaard: and with good link filtering, there can be several sets of linked comments to a document for different audiences
StarJunky Fermi: nice - adjusts to the reader's skill / interest level
Naomi Nihilist: or levels of understanding? hehe. I wish I could explain the way something like that would actually work, the language on hypertext is thankfully quite readable, but most sites about such things really lose me about three chapters in, because I don't have any background in scripting and can only make simple websites, html based and that's been years of effort.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, you could create multiple versions of things, with some going into more detailed explanations for teaching the concepts
Naomi Nihilist nods to SJ in agreement
Naomi Nihilist: So, what is keeping everyone from taking this on?
Jack Sondergaard: trying to create any kind of scripting for websites is a nightmare, especially when you try to make it database driven and secure
Jack Sondergaard: there is a small number of people working on Xanadu related projects
Jack Sondergaard: only recently have new tools been created that support the goals, like Python and E
Naomi Nihilist nods again
Jack Sondergaard: so there needs to be higher levels of tools created with them to make it easier to make the final product, things like interface builders for advanced hypertext to replace HTML
Jack Sondergaard: the end result shoud be no more difficult to use than a word processor or drawing program
Jack Sondergaard: so there's a lot of work yet to be done
Naomi Nihilist: That sounds heavenly -grins-
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I would love to be able to do 3D collaborative hypertext here in SL
Naomi Nihilist: Usually so I'd guess with any good concept, but it sounds like it could be viable if the right people got interested in funding support for it
Jack Sondergaard: yes, it needs the funding, people to organize projects, programmers who understand the goals
Jack Sondergaard: Compendium is another program I just recently found
Jack Sondergaard: it shares the goals of Xanadu, documenting wicked problems with cultural diversity
Naomi Nihilist: It took SL a long time to even offer basic link support, when I started there were not active links, you had to copy paste everything, which isn't so hard, but clicking is a lot easier to keep up with, and I do like the option to view pages inside of SL now too, to keep the feel of another world intact.
Naomi Nihilist: Wicked problems?
Jack Sondergaard: I am just about finished reading "Dialog Mapping", which explains how to use it
Jack Sondergaard: wicked problems are ones that are highly complex, with no one simple solution, but perhaps several to choose from, like in software design, business decisions, political and economic debates
Naomi Nihilist nods
Jack Sondergaard: you use Compendium during a discussion to put the questions, possible answers, pros and cons, all linked together
Naomi Nihilist: I like that term then, just had never heard it used.. but yes, racial issues in general are wicked, hehe. Most problems are, there is always another layer below what you think is the answer, or understanding.
Naomi Nihilist: That would work so well here, I went to an ethics talk that was so chaotic it was hard to make sense of, with the same explainations and answers being recyled for over an hour, because it was based on a text scenario, heh. wasn't even offered in notecard form... which would of helped a bit too, and when we did discuss a link, it was just a basic story, one sided newpaper view.
Jack Sondergaard: Compendium is designed for linking short sentence fragments during discussions, but Xanadu will support linking sections and segments of any length in larger documents
Naomi Nihilist nods
Naomi Nihilist: Well there has to be a first step right? :)
Jack Sondergaard: so arguments for a point could be book length if needed, or just a quick comment
Jack Sondergaard: yes, using Compendium would be an excellent way to start thinking along the lines of what Xanadu is trying to accomplish
Naomi Nihilist: I tend to make longer comments when able, instead of breaking it down and it getting lost in the scroll of text, but even though they have extended the character limit, it doesn't quite hold my entire thoughts.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, what is needed in a chat are parallel columns with linking lines
Jack Sondergaard: so you can scroll up and down any persons comments, and see the context of it, and still allow for the proper display of extended length comments
StarJunky Fermi: Jack, does Compendium support virtual collaboration over the Internet? Can't tell from its docs.
Jack Sondergaard: they are working on adding that
Jack Sondergaard: it is database driven
Jack Sondergaard: so can be used for huge diagrams that contain other diagrams, that contain others, etc.
Naomi Nihilist: I'd love that, would help cut down all the noise these normal chats create, to read just person A's comments then B would be prefect, esp. when trying to discuss things that might not ever have answers, just view points.
Naomi Nihilist nods
Jack Sondergaard: yes, both Xanadu and Compendium emphasize that all viewpoints be heard fully and acknowledged, with pros and cons pointed out to them, and any relevant points linked to
Naomi Nihilist: something that could be used to further talks, and keep them from getting stagnet too I'd like, could see what the main popular thoughts were, without hours of reading and editing to compare, talks would be much more dynamic then - I always thought the web -should- offer more than a real life chat or a book , since the means for information storage and comparison charting is here, just not really in use.
Jack Sondergaard: yes something that combines the strengths of books, chats, and forums
StarJunky Fermi: and wikis?
Naomi Nihilist: well I have to say I am glad I a came, even thought I was quite afraid it might go beyond my understanding, it actually makes more sense now. I hope the project you spoke of catches the interests of others - when put that way, many would be quick to say, they would like that offered to them.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, and wikis and blogs too
StarJunky Fermi: agreed Naomi - the core concepts of Xanadu are compelling
Jack Sondergaard: yes, when it becomes a reality, then people will understand what it is about
StarJunky Fermi: Jack - you are doing a great job of gatekeeping what technologies are out there -
Jack Sondergaard: thanks
StarJunky Fermi: I always enjoy these meetings - Thanks!
Naomi Nihilist: I think a lot of times projects like this tend to die out, because even though they focus on a bigger picture, it's a rather small population attempting it, those in programming circles and such
Jack Sondergaard: I am still learning all the time, trying to catch up with what others are doing
Naomi Nihilist smiles
Naomi Nihilist: Sounds like the way to be
StarJunky Fermi: yep - never stop learning, or you will become obsolete!
Naomi Nihilist giggles, and nods in agreement
Naomi Nihilist: Just call me TANDY hehe
StarJunky Fermi: heh
Jack Sondergaard: yes, most open source projects die out, not because they are bad ideas, but for a variety of other reasons
Naomi Nihilist: It's a lot easier to get people to follow bad ideas, at least.. that seems to be the case. Bad ideas usually make more profits too.
Sine Tone: Every good idea needs a more popular bad idea to suck away the bad people.
Sine Tone: e.g. KDE has Gnome to attract the idiots.
Sine Tone: Vim has emacs.
Sine Tone: Ruby has Python, which has Perl...
Sine Tone: Postfix has sendmail.
Jack Sondergaard: simple ideas, like HTML, catch on because they are easy to get started in, but they lack the depth to handle complex problems
Sine Tone hasn't taken his anti-cynicism tablets this morning
Naomi Nihilist: Hm, I don't see a problem with a less complex way to understand something, it does not make someone an idiot does it, for understanding one better than the others?
Sine Tone: Well, HTML was never intended to be as visible as it has become.
Sine Tone: It's a case of "good enough is the enemy of perfect".
Naomi Nihilist: Well, you have to get there someway, prehaps it was pushed more as a step than an ending.. but I don't see the problem with easy at all
Jack Sondergaard: good enough is good enough for a time, until something better comes along
Sine Tone: Ted Nelson's a big fan of 'easy' after all... what with the 2 minute rule.
Naomi Nihilist: Try as I might, my brain simply refuses to understand complex math, and remember long strings of coding.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, Ted emphased having a deep structure that made it simpler to handle complex problems, not using shallow tools that made it difficult or impossible to create solutions because of the deficiencies of the tools
Jack Sondergaard: like one-way breakable links on the web for instance, easy to create, but lacking in capabilities
Naomi Nihilist nods
Jack Sondergaard: the ideal of keeping all versions is finally starting to catch on, with hard drive space becoming greater
Naomi Nihilist: The idea of permanent storage is so appealing. It's the worst when you are really on to something, only to find the support links page only has one or two active left on it.
Jack Sondergaard: the next version of the Mac operating system will automatically back up everything and allow going back to any day's previous version of a file
Naomi Nihilist: Nice :)
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I know I have some broken links on my pages I need to fix
Naomi Nihilist smiles
Naomi Nihilist: Almost ever page out there has them
Naomi Nihilist: hard to keep up which links die, even with the tracking software
Sine Tone: Broken links are like pictures of kittens. Every web site has them.
Jack Sondergaard: I have pictures of my fish
Sine Tone: Yeah, I have pictures of squirrels instead of kittens.
Jack Sondergaard: but also have one with a cat in front of my aquarium I need to upload
Naomi Nihilist: Hehe. The kittens thing has outlasted all the other fads for sure, the orly owl is already fading to the shadows, but the kittens always have the spotlight :)
Sine Tone: Well, there's the ongoing Aqua Teen Hunger Force in Boston jokes.
Naomi Nihilist: Yes, Livejournal was choked up with that same story a couple of days back
Naomi Nihilist: every other friend, had to link it
Naomi Nihilist: same with the captioned kittens
Naomi Nihilist: Of course, I can't really talk... my page has pictures of my 3 kitties, and way too many of me.
Jack Sondergaard: one of my fish pictures on Flickr has captions added to each fish identifying it, an example of span to span linking applied to an image
Sine Tone: Yeah, I've done "name the squirrels" pictures on Flickr.
Naomi Nihilist: Well livejournal attempted something like that with the tag system, but going back 4 years just to catalouge isn't my idea of a good time.
Jack Sondergaard: now just need to be able to create captions with 2 endpoints
Sine Tone: I tagged most of my old stuff 'cause I could do it via database
Sine Tone: In a way I was lucky LiveJournal had forced me off their service.
Naomi Nihilist: forced?
Sine Tone: Yup, I was one of the many victims of their Abuse Team.
Naomi Nihilist: ah, I understand now, I thought you meant the buyout or other things that have been going, the ad supported pages, etc.
Sine Tone: Oh, that would have pissed me off, maybe enough to leave, but I was already gone by then.
Naomi Nihilist: I did get an archive tool, that has it all saved if it should ever get shut down or lost
Sine Tone: Yeah, fortunately I had backups of everything.
Sine Tone: Well, everything in my journal.
Sine Tone: All the comments by friends, and comments in other journals, were lost.
StarJunky Fermi: gotta run folks - great talking you all :)
Naomi Nihilist: You too, take care :)
Jack Sondergaard: thanks
Naomi Nihilist: This one saves comments on my own, but not those made to others, not sure there is one out there that does...
Naomi Nihilist: I know I can't keep track of each passing thought I had by memory alone, even if it there to search through
Sine Tone: Anyhow, on the plus side, once I was off LJ I could put in all my back-content to 1986 or so...
Naomi Nihilist giggles
Jack Sondergaard: I will have to check out LiveJournal, I have started a few blogs, but forget to keep them updated
Naomi Nihilist: My content back then was made of googly eyes and glue, maybe some cotton balls. hehe.
Sine Tone: Nooooo, don't!
Sine Tone: http://ljabuse.blogspot.com/
Sine Tone: LiveJournal has totally jumped the shark at this point.
Naomi Nihilist: hehe yeah.
Naomi Nihilist: it has
Sine Tone: Look at the ass-ugly ads on the front page.
Naomi Nihilist: I tried a few other places, including blogspot, but my friends never would make the switch, so I stay
Sine Tone: Get your friends to set up an RSS feed to LiveJournal. It's not exactly rocket science.
Sine Tone: Or set it up for them.
Sine Tone: I log in with OpenID to comment.
Naomi Nihilist nods
Naomi Nihilist: that was a nice addition.
Naomi Nihilist: It was a pleasant talk gentlemen, thanks for helping me understand what it actually ment, hehe. I am reading about some of the problems Ted has had, but surely it will take off if everyone has it made clear to them. I wish you both a wonderful day.
Jack Sondergaard: you too
Jack Sondergaard: thanks for coming
Naomi Nihilist: Do you have a group Jack, or just hold them at random times?
Jack Sondergaard: yes, there is a group
Jack Sondergaard: Xanadu zigzag
Naomi Nihilist: Thanks, :D
Jack Sondergaard: I'm not very up to date on wikis and blogs, been spending my time trying to learn to program and other reading
Jack Sondergaard: lately I have been reading some math history, it is fascinating
Jack Sondergaard: if you could link all the math history and biography books together with tutorials, examples, exercises, etc., that would be a powerful way to learn math
Jack Sondergaard: same for learning to program
Sine Tone: I need to learn US history.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, just about anything could benefit
Jack Sondergaard: especially those things that have a history of being difficult to learn
Jack Sondergaard: my college U. S. History prof was amazing
Sine Tone: My Social and Economic History teacher was amazing.
Sine Tone: Pity he was also a pedophile. I wonder if he's out of jail yet?
Jack Sondergaard: there wasn't even one question asked of him that he didn't instantly know the answer
Jack Sondergaard: hmm, maybe teaching prisoners now
Jack Sondergaard: my history prof had read the entire encyclopedia twice, and also in spanish
Sine Tone: Hmm, sounds like it's peacock season again IRL...
Jack Sondergaard: I've tried to get started doing that several times, but there was so much that was incomprehensible to me
Jack Sondergaard: peacock season?
Sine Tone: There's this book called Dictionary. The plot's not very good, but at least they explain each word as they go along.
Sine Tone: There are peacocks near our house. They're noisy. They screech during spring and fall.
Jack Sondergaard: I will have to look for that book
Jack Sondergaard: oh, yes, when I was a kid on the farm in Kansas, there were peacocks about a mile away we could hear at night
Sine Tone: What kind of bird crows at night anyway?!
Jack Sondergaard: I think it was as night, it was a long time ago
Sine Tone: Yeah, the ones here screech at night.
Jack Sondergaard: there's a loud Indonesian monkey called the Siamang that makes the strangest noises
Jack Sondergaard: I had my recorder with me at the zoo and recorded them going in the zoo, then played back the recording after they quieted down, that got them started again
Jack Sondergaard: h Marko
Marko Larsson: hi
Marko Larsson: a bit quiet here , eh ?
Jack Sondergaard: yes
Sine Tone: I just happened to log in to see what was happening and saw this event.
Jack Sondergaard: I will post the chat log on the hyperworlds website
Jack Sondergaard: I will try to get that done tonight after work