Kipp Patton: Morning Jack
Jack Sondergaard: good morning
StarJunky Fermi: Hi JAck
Kipp Patton: (brb)
Jack Sondergaard: hi Starjunky
Jack Sondergaard: how was your week?
StarJunky Fermi: work was awful
StarJunky Fermi: Micro$oft patching caused all kinds of probs for me
Jack Sondergaard: too much?
Jack Sondergaard: oh
Jack Sondergaard: are you using Vista yet?
StarJunky Fermi: nope - no Vista
Jack Sondergaard: security patches?
StarJunky Fermi: will prolly be quite some time before work moves to Vista
StarJunky Fermi: yep
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I expect most businesses to wait a while
StarJunky Fermi: brb.. wife is bugging me :(
Jack Sondergaard: I have been reading some of the history of operating systems lately
Jack Sondergaard: OK
Jack Sondergaard: hi Porphyre
Jack Sondergaard: hi nessie
nessie Robson: hihi jack
nessie Robson: i don't know how stopping dance
Jack Sondergaard: are you here for the discussion?
nessie Robson: yes
nessie Robson: discussion about what
StarJunky Fermi: Tools | Stop all Animations nessie
StarJunky Fermi: but that does not always work
Jack Sondergaard: usually if that doesn't work, then a restart of the program will fix it
nessie Robson: indeed it doesn't work
StarJunky Fermi: Any of you folks Scientific American mag subscribers?
Jack Sondergaard: no
nessie Robson: i will be exhauted soon lol
StarJunky Fermi: Ted Nelson was mentioned in an article called Digitally Memorize your Life in March issue
nessie Robson: kipp seems very quite don't u think so?
Jack Sondergaard: oh well, don't worry about it
Kipp Patton: Im back
nessie Robson: hi kipp
Kipp Patton: Im thinking about it
Jack Sondergaard: I will look it up and read it
Kipp Patton: ello nessie
StarJunky Fermi: the article may be online, I'm checking now
Kipp Patton: which article?
Jack Sondergaard: hi Djiezes
Kipp Patton: ohhh ok
Djiezes Cassini: hi
nessie Robson: do u know eastwood clint?
StarJunky Fermi: yep - here's the online article URL
Jack Sondergaard: I have been reading some about the history of operating systems at roughlydrafted.com
Kipp Patton: ello Djiezes
Djiezes Cassini: hi, this is the Xanadu discussion?
nessie Robson: i don't understand about what u r speaking i'm french and idiot
nessie Robson: who or what is Xanadu?
Djiezes Cassini: I was curious to that to ... the events section said something about hypertext in the 60's
Djiezes Cassini: like html & css
Jack Sondergaard: Xanadu is a software project begun in the 1960's
nessie Robson: ok and what for this software it is
Jack Sondergaard: the ideas for it started then, but it has never been completed
Jack Sondergaard: I will review quickly the general ideas of it
Djiezes Cassini: okay, ty
nessie Robson: okay we listen to u
Jack Sondergaard: it is a hypertext system that has links that are unbreakable and 2 way
Djiezes Cassini: i'm sorry to bump in, you probably started with this 20 mins ago.
Jack Sondergaard: by 2 way, I mean that if someone makes a link for A to B, then it can be seen and followed from both documents, not just one
Jack Sondergaard: no, we are just now getting started
nessie Robson: so it's a perfect system for hachers?
nessie Robson: hackers
Jack Sondergaard: hackers in the good sense of the word, yes
Jack Sondergaard: links are not imbedded in the document, so you can have sets of links for a variety of purposes
Jack Sondergaard: and choose which to view at any time
nessie Robson: i see starjunky is sleeping
Jack Sondergaard: also, links can be typed; support, correction, disagreement, etc.
nessie Robson: jack u should serve some beers
StarJunky Fermi: I'm back!
Jack Sondergaard: formatting is also not imbedded, so you can have several formats for the same document
Kipp Patton: not in the morning
nessie Robson: r u agree with window vista?
Jack Sondergaard: I use Mac OSX
nessie Robson: ok it was only to animate the debate
Jack Sondergaard: but have also put Ubuntu Linux on one of my computers recently
Jack Sondergaard: no problem
nessie Robson: Djiezes Cassini is a spy
Jack Sondergaard: hopefully Vista will be more secure
nessie Robson: do u love anything else except informatic?
Jack Sondergaard: Microsoft has a huge job trying to support some many kinds of hardware, and also trying to stay backward compatible
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have several other hobbies
Jack Sondergaard: to relax mostly
nessie Robson: hey everybody jack is waiting for your answers
nessie Robson: u don't seem very inerested
Jack Sondergaard: anyway, with formatting not being embedded makes it possible to use the same text and have it formatted differently for different uses
Djiezes Cassini: you are entertaining for all of us
nessie Robson: do u have some funny joke?
Jack Sondergaard: another one of Xanadu's ideas is called "transclusion", or hypersharing
Jack Sondergaard: all authors on Xanadu will give advance permission for any document to be quoted in part or whole, in advance, without having to ask permission
Jack Sondergaard: but quotations will link back to the origin
nessie Robson: excuse me Jack but your discussion is boring godday and good life everybody i go
Djiezes Cassini: cool, so why are we stuck with the usual kind of linking?
Kipp Patton: Thanks for coming nessie
StarJunky Fermi: nessie is very rude
Djiezes Cassini: probably a teenager ...
StarJunky Fermi: yup
Jack Sondergaard: HTML is a very limited kind of link
Jack Sondergaard: just point to point, or point to document
Jack Sondergaard: one way and breakable
Jack Sondergaard: it links to addresses based on file and directory names that often change
Jack Sondergaard: in Xanadu, when a new version of a document is created, the old version is still available and linked to the new version
Kipp Patton: ello Tempel
Djiezes Cassini: so how does xanadu link, if not to a file/directory structure?
Jack Sondergaard: documents each have addresses assigned to them
Jack Sondergaard: for example, on the web, each URL is unique, a numerical address
Jack Sondergaard: but it extends only to the server address
Jack Sondergaard: in Xanadu, it would extend to the document and version
Djiezes Cassini: ah
Djiezes Cassini: so DNS servers would directly direct
Jack Sondergaard: so if the file name and directory location change, links would not break
Djiezes Cassini: & that 'meta-info', is saved in a client-xanadu-server ? or in the DNS servers?
Jack Sondergaard: yes, in url's, there are 4 numbers, each no larger than 255, in Xanadu, there would be several more, and each could be any length needed
Jack Sondergaard: the numerical addresses would be contained in the links, which would be stored in a database of some kind
Sine Tone: I've often thought they should use something like tumblers for the phone system.
Jack Sondergaard: they would also specify the link type, and starting location and ending location at both documents linked
Sine Tone: Then they'd never need to change existing numbers due to running out.
Jack Sondergaard: yes, that would be a good idea
Jack Sondergaard: I think they try to limit the length of phone numbers so they can be remembered easily
Sine Tone: Yes, but that would also be the case with tumblers.
Sine Tone: Right now, there are entire chunks of wasted phone number space.
Sine Tone: Places where you don't actually need 7 digits for the local number, but they have to have them in case they need them in 20 years
Jack Sondergaard: yes, there are advantages to both short and long addresses
Jack Sondergaard: in documents, long addresses can be used since they are remembered by the computer, and you could also have a naming system like we have now, but the numbers would always be in the links
Kipp Patton: :)
Jack Sondergaard: another aspect of the system of transclusion is that it is a new copyright system that encourages maximum reuse of content
Jack Sondergaard: content creators could choose either to give away or sell what they have, and it would be sold at a fine-grained level
Jack Sondergaard: so if you watch only 10 minutes of a movie, you would not pay for the whole thing
Kipp Patton: How much would be paid for a 1000 word article?
Jack Sondergaard: that would be up to the author to decide
Jack Sondergaard: there would be an incentive to keep the price low, to sell more of it
Kipp Patton: true
Jack Sondergaard: and no one would say that everything will cost at least x amount
Kipp Patton: ok
Jack Sondergaard: so you could sell your song for 1/1000 of a cent if you wanted to
Kipp Patton: would that be a profit margin,if 500 people bought the song
Jack Sondergaard: it would be the cost to the buyer
Kipp Patton: what would the benefit(s) be to the creator of the song?
Jack Sondergaard: you could also easily make an online magazine, putting together all that you want
Sine Tone: Effectively, if someone re-used your own you would automatically get syndication royalties.
Kipp Patton: :)
Sine Tone: your work, you would
Jack Sondergaard: yes
Sine Tone: i.e. Xanadu tracks back to the originator of each byte of material, and shares the $
Kipp Patton: Is Xanandu at least usuable now....or is it still in the works?
Jack Sondergaard: so if you have an online magazine or book, music, movie collection, or any combination of these; all the original authors would get paid each time what they produced is viewed or listened to
Kipp Patton: sounds good to me
Jack Sondergaard: and free content could be mixed in too
Sine Tone: Of course, there's a hole in this model, in that it doesn't really allow for the possibility that editing has value in and of itself.
Sine Tone: But it's still a big improvement on what we have now.
Jack Sondergaard: probably, an editor would add their introductions and coments as well
Sine Tone: The other issue is that it makes verbosity pay.
Sine Tone: I buy computing books based on how short and concise they are.
Sine Tone: But most people seem to buy the biggest, thickest doorstop.
Jack Sondergaard: anyone could write reviews and recommend what is worth buying, so to get good reviews, authors would need to avoid padding
Sine Tone: It just doesn't seem to work that way in the paper book world.
Jack Sondergaard: in computing books, some people need more explanation than others
Kipp Patton: I'd rather write short and sweet
Kipp Patton: but that's just me
Jack Sondergaard: sadly, paper books have to fill up shelf space to sell
Jack Sondergaard: most fiction, for example is heavily padded to make it look big in the bookstore
Jack Sondergaard: so most isn't worth reading
Jack Sondergaard: which brings up the value of 2 way links
Jack Sondergaard: reviews of documents in Xanadu would be linked from the document, even though they are created later
Jack Sondergaard: reputation systems could be created, like on eBay or Amazon
Jack Sondergaard: you could rate the value of reviews
Jack Sondergaard: a lot of links could end up in a document, which is another reason there is value in not having links embedded in the document itself
Sine Tone: There would be a spam problem, of course...
Kipp Patton: Interesting
Jack Sondergaard: links could overlap, and could be shown a few at a time
Kipp Patton: How would links over lap?
Jack Sondergaard: that's where you have filters
Kipp Patton: ok
Jack Sondergaard: just tag spammers to be ignored, and they become invisible to you
Jack Sondergaard: a link could be from a word to the definition in several dictionaries, a thesaurus, an encyclopedia
Jack Sondergaard: another link could span that sentence, another the paragraph, another the chapter, etc.
Kipp Patton: That's interesting
Jack Sondergaard: they could be different colors and translucent, and visibly point to other open windows
Sine Tone: OK, I gotta go do stuff. TTFN...
Jack Sondergaard: if you are in a 3D environment, links could be 3D
Jack Sondergaard: OK
StarJunky Fermi: Jack - I was wondering about what you meant regarding implementing ZigZag in SL?
StarJunky Fermi: from the Rubyists mtg a few weeks bac
StarJunky Fermi: back
Jack Sondergaard: zigzag is a 3D view of linked nodes
Kipp Patton: Welcome back Star
Jack Sondergaard: with the dimensions chosen from a larger set
StarJunky Fermi: oh,I was not gone.... just been lurking
Kipp Patton: :)
Kipp Patton: all i see is a hat Star
Jack Sondergaard: each dimension could represent a type of link
StarJunky Fermi: how bizarre
Kipp Patton: all this info is just amazing to me
StarJunky Fermi: would you want actual prims with special prim link objects between them?
Jack Sondergaard: you could publish a dissertation, and link portions of it to related works, different versions, other's comments
StarJunky Fermi: or some other SL display?
Kipp Patton: Not sure
Jack Sondergaard: you could use 3D prims, but also map documents onto them, when you click on one, it might open up something like a notecard to make it easier to read
StarJunky Fermi: cool
Jack Sondergaard: or you could have it all as linked windows
Kipp Patton: :)
Kipp Patton: i wish Xanadu was in working mode
Kipp Patton: lol
Jack Sondergaard: when you point to one node to focus on it, it would get larger and become the center
Kipp Patton: interesting
Jack Sondergaard: scripting could animate it, so as you follow links, other links become visible
StarJunky Fermi: ahh - her Rudeness is back :)
Kipp Patton: welcome back nessie
Jack Sondergaard: each new document would have it's own links that come into focus when it becomes the center of attention
nessie Robson: hi everybody
Jack Sondergaard: hello
nessie Robson: Xanadu has no secret now for u?
Kipp Patton: There's nothing to hide ,nessie
StarJunky Fermi: ok - that helps Jack, I see what you're aiming for now
Jack Sondergaard: in a chat, for example, each person's comments could be shown in parallel columns
Jack Sondergaard: and each column scrolled independently
Jack Sondergaard: with translucent lines showing the order of addition to the discussion
Jack Sondergaard: and visible links to other related documents that could be displayed upon request
Kipp Patton: Thanks for another great Xanandu discussion, Jack
StarJunky Fermi: interesting idea
Kipp Patton: I need to go for now
Jack Sondergaard: OK, thanks for coming
StarJunky Fermi: yeah - me too
StarJunky Fermi: time for RL lunch
nessie Robson: Kipp the pressure lol
Jack Sondergaard: and thanks for waking me
Kipp Patton: thanks for coming Star
Kipp Patton: no problem Jack
Jack Sondergaard: yes, some good ground covered today