Kipp Patton: Morning Jack

Jack Sondergaard: good morning

StarJunky Fermi: Hi JAck

Kipp Patton: (brb)

Jack Sondergaard: hi Starjunky

Jack Sondergaard: how was your week?

StarJunky Fermi: work was awful

StarJunky Fermi: Micro$oft patching caused all kinds of probs for me

Jack Sondergaard: too much?

Jack Sondergaard: oh

Jack Sondergaard: are you using Vista yet?

StarJunky Fermi: nope - no Vista

Jack Sondergaard: security patches?

StarJunky Fermi: will prolly be quite some time before work moves to Vista

StarJunky Fermi: yep

Jack Sondergaard: yes, I expect most businesses to wait a while

StarJunky Fermi: brb.. wife is bugging me :(

Jack Sondergaard: I have been reading some of the history of operating systems lately

Jack Sondergaard: OK

Jack Sondergaard: hi Porphyre

Jack Sondergaard: hi nessie

nessie Robson: hihi jack

nessie Robson: i don't know how stopping dance

Jack Sondergaard: are you here for the discussion?

nessie Robson: yes

nessie Robson: discussion about what

StarJunky Fermi: Tools | Stop all Animations nessie

StarJunky Fermi: but that does not always work

Jack Sondergaard: usually if that doesn't work, then a restart of the program will fix it

nessie Robson: indeed it doesn't work

StarJunky Fermi: Any of you folks Scientific American mag subscribers?

Jack Sondergaard: no

nessie Robson: i will be exhauted soon lol

StarJunky Fermi: Ted Nelson was mentioned in an article called Digitally Memorize your Life in March issue

nessie Robson: kipp seems very quite don't u think so?

Jack Sondergaard: oh well, don't worry about it

Kipp Patton: Im back

nessie Robson: hi kipp

Kipp Patton: Im thinking about it

Jack Sondergaard: I will look it up and read it

Kipp Patton: ello nessie

StarJunky Fermi: the article may be online, I'm checking now

Kipp Patton: which article?

Jack Sondergaard: hi Djiezes

Kipp Patton: ohhh ok

Djiezes Cassini: hi

nessie Robson: do u know eastwood clint?

StarJunky Fermi: yep - here's the online article URL

StarJunky Fermi:

Jack Sondergaard: I have been reading some about the history of operating systems at

Kipp Patton: ello Djiezes

Djiezes Cassini: hi, this is the Xanadu discussion?

nessie Robson: i don't understand about what u r speaking i'm french and idiot

nessie Robson: who or what is Xanadu?

Djiezes Cassini: I was curious to that to ... the events section said something about hypertext in the 60's

Djiezes Cassini: like html & css

Jack Sondergaard: Xanadu is a software project begun in the 1960's

nessie Robson: ok and what for this software it is

Jack Sondergaard: the ideas for it started then, but it has never been completed

Jack Sondergaard: I will review quickly the general ideas of it

Djiezes Cassini: okay, ty

nessie Robson: okay we listen to u

Jack Sondergaard: it is a hypertext system that has links that are unbreakable and 2 way

Djiezes Cassini: i'm sorry to bump in, you probably started with this 20 mins ago.

Jack Sondergaard: by 2 way, I mean that if someone makes a link for A to B, then it can be seen and followed from both documents, not just one

Jack Sondergaard: no, we are just now getting started

nessie Robson: so it's a perfect system for hachers?

nessie Robson: hackers

Jack Sondergaard: hackers in the good sense of the word, yes

Jack Sondergaard: links are not imbedded in the document, so you can have sets of links for a variety of purposes

Jack Sondergaard: and choose which to view at any time

nessie Robson: i see starjunky is sleeping

Jack Sondergaard: also, links can be typed; support, correction, disagreement, etc.

nessie Robson: jack u should serve some beers

StarJunky Fermi: I'm back!

Jack Sondergaard: formatting is also not imbedded, so you can have several formats for the same document

Kipp Patton: not in the morning

nessie Robson: r u agree with window vista?

Jack Sondergaard: I use Mac OSX

nessie Robson: ok it was only to animate the debate

Jack Sondergaard: but have also put Ubuntu Linux on one of my computers recently

Jack Sondergaard: no problem

nessie Robson: Djiezes Cassini is a spy

Jack Sondergaard: hopefully Vista will be more secure

nessie Robson: do u love anything else except informatic?

Jack Sondergaard: Microsoft has a huge job trying to support some many kinds of hardware, and also trying to stay backward compatible

Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have several other hobbies

Jack Sondergaard: to relax mostly

nessie Robson: hey everybody jack is waiting for your answers

nessie Robson: u don't seem very inerested

Jack Sondergaard: anyway, with formatting not being embedded makes it possible to use the same text and have it formatted differently for different uses

Djiezes Cassini: you are entertaining for all of us

nessie Robson: do u have some funny joke?

Jack Sondergaard: another one of Xanadu's ideas is called "transclusion", or hypersharing

Jack Sondergaard: all authors on Xanadu will give advance permission for any document to be quoted in part or whole, in advance, without having to ask permission

Jack Sondergaard: but quotations will link back to the origin

nessie Robson: excuse me Jack but your discussion is boring godday and good life everybody i go

Djiezes Cassini: cool, so why are we stuck with the usual kind of linking?

Kipp Patton: Thanks for coming nessie

StarJunky Fermi: nessie is very rude

Djiezes Cassini: probably a teenager ...

StarJunky Fermi: yup

Jack Sondergaard: HTML is a very limited kind of link

Jack Sondergaard: just point to point, or point to document

Jack Sondergaard: one way and breakable

Jack Sondergaard: it links to addresses based on file and directory names that often change

Jack Sondergaard: in Xanadu, when a new version of a document is created, the old version is still available and linked to the new version

Kipp Patton: ello Tempel

Djiezes Cassini: so how does xanadu link, if not to a file/directory structure?

Jack Sondergaard: documents each have addresses assigned to them

Jack Sondergaard: for example, on the web, each URL is unique, a numerical address

Jack Sondergaard: but it extends only to the server address

Jack Sondergaard: in Xanadu, it would extend to the document and version

Djiezes Cassini: ah

Djiezes Cassini: so DNS servers would directly direct

Jack Sondergaard: so if the file name and directory location change, links would not break

Djiezes Cassini: & that 'meta-info', is saved in a client-xanadu-server ? or in the DNS servers?

Jack Sondergaard: yes, in url's, there are 4 numbers, each no larger than 255, in Xanadu, there would be several more, and each could be any length needed

Jack Sondergaard: the numerical addresses would be contained in the links, which would be stored in a database of some kind

Sine Tone: I've often thought they should use something like tumblers for the phone system.

Jack Sondergaard: they would also specify the link type, and starting location and ending location at both documents linked

Sine Tone: Then they'd never need to change existing numbers due to running out.

Jack Sondergaard: yes, that would be a good idea

Jack Sondergaard: I think they try to limit the length of phone numbers so they can be remembered easily

Sine Tone: Yes, but that would also be the case with tumblers.

Sine Tone: Right now, there are entire chunks of wasted phone number space.

Sine Tone: Places where you don't actually need 7 digits for the local number, but they have to have them in case they need them in 20 years

Jack Sondergaard: yes, there are advantages to both short and long addresses

Jack Sondergaard: in documents, long addresses can be used since they are remembered by the computer, and you could also have a naming system like we have now, but the numbers would always be in the links

Kipp Patton: :)

Jack Sondergaard: another aspect of the system of transclusion is that it is a new copyright system that encourages maximum reuse of content

Jack Sondergaard: content creators could choose either to give away or sell what they have, and it would be sold at a fine-grained level

Jack Sondergaard: so if you watch only 10 minutes of a movie, you would not pay for the whole thing

Kipp Patton: How much would be paid for a 1000 word article?

Jack Sondergaard: that would be up to the author to decide

Jack Sondergaard: there would be an incentive to keep the price low, to sell more of it

Kipp Patton: true

Jack Sondergaard: and no one would say that everything will cost at least x amount

Kipp Patton: ok

Jack Sondergaard: so you could sell your song for 1/1000 of a cent if you wanted to

Kipp Patton: would that be a profit margin,if 500 people bought the song

Jack Sondergaard: it would be the cost to the buyer

Kipp Patton: what would the benefit(s) be to the creator of the song?

Jack Sondergaard: you could also easily make an online magazine, putting together all that you want

Sine Tone: Effectively, if someone re-used your own you would automatically get syndication royalties.

Kipp Patton: :)

Sine Tone: your work, you would

Jack Sondergaard: yes

Sine Tone: i.e. Xanadu tracks back to the originator of each byte of material, and shares the $

Kipp Patton: Is Xanandu at least usuable now....or is it still in the works?

Jack Sondergaard: so if you have an online magazine or book, music, movie collection, or any combination of these; all the original authors would get paid each time what they produced is viewed or listened to

Kipp Patton: sounds good to me

Jack Sondergaard: and free content could be mixed in too

Sine Tone: Of course, there's a hole in this model, in that it doesn't really allow for the possibility that editing has value in and of itself.

Sine Tone: But it's still a big improvement on what we have now.

Jack Sondergaard: probably, an editor would add their introductions and coments as well

Sine Tone: The other issue is that it makes verbosity pay.

Sine Tone: I buy computing books based on how short and concise they are.

Sine Tone: But most people seem to buy the biggest, thickest doorstop.

Jack Sondergaard: anyone could write reviews and recommend what is worth buying, so to get good reviews, authors would need to avoid padding

Sine Tone: It just doesn't seem to work that way in the paper book world.

Jack Sondergaard: in computing books, some people need more explanation than others

Kipp Patton: I'd rather write short and sweet

Kipp Patton: but that's just me

Jack Sondergaard: sadly, paper books have to fill up shelf space to sell

Jack Sondergaard: most fiction, for example is heavily padded to make it look big in the bookstore

Jack Sondergaard: so most isn't worth reading

Jack Sondergaard: which brings up the value of 2 way links

Jack Sondergaard: reviews of documents in Xanadu would be linked from the document, even though they are created later

Jack Sondergaard: reputation systems could be created, like on eBay or Amazon

Jack Sondergaard: you could rate the value of reviews

Jack Sondergaard: a lot of links could end up in a document, which is another reason there is value in not having links embedded in the document itself

Sine Tone: There would be a spam problem, of course...

Kipp Patton: Interesting

Jack Sondergaard: links could overlap, and could be shown a few at a time

Kipp Patton: How would links over lap?

Jack Sondergaard: that's where you have filters

Kipp Patton: ok

Jack Sondergaard: just tag spammers to be ignored, and they become invisible to you

Jack Sondergaard: a link could be from a word to the definition in several dictionaries, a thesaurus, an encyclopedia

Jack Sondergaard: another link could span that sentence, another the paragraph, another the chapter, etc.

Kipp Patton: That's interesting

Jack Sondergaard: they could be different colors and translucent, and visibly point to other open windows

Sine Tone: OK, I gotta go do stuff. TTFN...

Jack Sondergaard: if you are in a 3D environment, links could be 3D

Jack Sondergaard: OK

StarJunky Fermi: Jack - I was wondering about what you meant regarding implementing ZigZag in SL?

StarJunky Fermi: from the Rubyists mtg a few weeks bac

StarJunky Fermi: back

Jack Sondergaard: zigzag is a 3D view of linked nodes

Kipp Patton: Welcome back Star

Jack Sondergaard: with the dimensions chosen from a larger set

StarJunky Fermi: oh,I was not gone.... just been lurking

Kipp Patton: :)

Kipp Patton: all i see is a hat Star

Jack Sondergaard: each dimension could represent a type of link

StarJunky Fermi: how bizarre

Kipp Patton: all this info is just amazing to me

StarJunky Fermi: would you want actual prims with special prim link objects between them?

Jack Sondergaard: you could publish a dissertation, and link portions of it to related works, different versions, other's comments

StarJunky Fermi: or some other SL display?

Kipp Patton: Not sure

Jack Sondergaard: you could use 3D prims, but also map documents onto them, when you click on one, it might open up something like a notecard to make it easier to read

StarJunky Fermi: cool

Jack Sondergaard: or you could have it all as linked windows

Kipp Patton: :)

Kipp Patton: i wish Xanadu was in working mode

Kipp Patton: lol

Jack Sondergaard: when you point to one node to focus on it, it would get larger and become the center

Kipp Patton: interesting

Jack Sondergaard: scripting could animate it, so as you follow links, other links become visible

StarJunky Fermi: ahh - her Rudeness is back :)

Kipp Patton: welcome back nessie

Jack Sondergaard: each new document would have it's own links that come into focus when it becomes the center of attention

nessie Robson: hi everybody

Jack Sondergaard: hello

nessie Robson: Xanadu has no secret now for u?

Kipp Patton: There's nothing to hide ,nessie

StarJunky Fermi: ok - that helps Jack, I see what you're aiming for now

Jack Sondergaard: in a chat, for example, each person's comments could be shown in parallel columns

Jack Sondergaard: and each column scrolled independently

Jack Sondergaard: with translucent lines showing the order of addition to the discussion

Jack Sondergaard: and visible links to other related documents that could be displayed upon request

Kipp Patton: Thanks for another great Xanandu discussion, Jack

StarJunky Fermi: interesting idea

Kipp Patton: I need to go for now

Jack Sondergaard: OK, thanks for coming

StarJunky Fermi: yeah - me too

StarJunky Fermi: time for RL lunch

nessie Robson: Kipp the pressure lol

Jack Sondergaard: and thanks for waking me

Kipp Patton: thanks for coming Star

Kipp Patton: no problem Jack

Jack Sondergaard: yes, some good ground covered today