April 17, 2006
IM: Laidbare Woebegone: Hi Is your event still on?
IM: Laidbare Woebegone: Am I in the wrong place?
Laidbare Woebegone: Hi
Laidbare Woebegone: behinf you
Laidbare Woebegone: hi
Jack Sondergaard: oh, just don't see you yet
Laidbare Woebegone: hi!
Jack Sondergaard: hello
Jack Sondergaard: well, anyway, we usually just have 2 or 3 here, Kipp is trying to get here now
Jack Sondergaard: over here is a notecard dispenser that describes the topic
Laidbare Woebegone: thnks
Jack Sondergaard: so, have you heard of Xanadu before?
Laidbare Woebegone: Yes
Laidbare Woebegone: Rings a bell as early hypertext project
Laidbare Woebegone: but couldn't tell you more
Jack Sondergaard: yes
Jack Sondergaard: it's funny, all I see where you are is a box
Laidbare Woebegone: How long you been SL?
Jack Sondergaard: about a year
Laidbare Woebegone: Weird. BOx is only attachment I wear
Laidbare Woebegone: Try switching groups maybe?
Jack Sondergaard: I was studying some about AutoCAD today
Laidbare Woebegone: do tell. I dabble in autocad a bit
Laidbare Woebegone: what were you studying
Jack Sondergaard: Autodesk was developing Xanadu during the 1980's
Jack Sondergaard: hi Xcaliber
Laidbare Woebegone: hi
Xcaliber Zadoq: hi Jack, fascinating topic
Xcaliber Zadoq: hi Laidbare
Jack Sondergaard: yes
Jack Sondergaard: there's a notecard dispenser next to you
Xcaliber Zadoq: k
Jack Sondergaard: it describes a little about Xanadu
Jack Sondergaard: the current restart of the project is using Python
Laidbare Woebegone: why not ruby
Laidbare Woebegone: lol
Laidbare Woebegone: j/k
Jack Sondergaard: I just watched a video about vpyton
Jack Sondergaard: I'm not sure
Jack Sondergaard: I read a little about Ruby once, but can't remember anything about it
Laidbare Woebegone: i'm just kidding around
Jack Sondergaard: oh
Laidbare Woebegone: cuz of the supposed lang wars on
Laidbare Woebegone: the web,
Xcaliber Zadoq: ok, read about xanadu and zigzag architecture,,, so i'm a bit up to speed
Jack Sondergaard: oh, yes, what I have looked at about Python looks like a good choice
Jack Sondergaard: great
An object named Object owned by Jack Sondergaard gave you Xanadu and zigzag architecture.
Jack Sondergaard: a lot of people say Xanadu won't ever be completed, because it started so long ago, and didn't get finished the first 2 attempts
Laidbare Woebegone: maybe time is right now
Laidbare Woebegone: technologies to back it up?
Jack Sondergaard: but I think the core ideas of it are just too important to let die
Jack Sondergaard: yes, the tools are better now
Jack Sondergaard: I only first heard of vpython today, but am already very impressed with the 18 minute video I saw
Naedo Goff: sorry I'm late, folks...
Laidbare Woebegone: Hi
Jack Sondergaard: it could be used to get the server get a start, and provide the client as well
Jack Sondergaard: no problem
Jack Sondergaard: glad you could make it
Xcaliber Zadoq: hi Naedo
Naedo Goff: hi xcaliber
Jack Sondergaard: hi Naedo
Naedo Goff: new faces here every time :-)
Jack Sondergaard: I also learned that Autodesk now owns both Maya and 3dsMax
Jack Sondergaard: so perhaps they will make some tools that can be used for Xanadu once again
Jack Sondergaard: I was looking for the Audodesk discussion logs today about Xanadu. I know they are out there, when I find them again, I will link to them
Jack Sondergaard: sometimes I think about the databases, and layered visuals in SL, something like this could perhaps use Xanadu as the source of data
Xcaliber Zadoq: have u explored the use of XML to get data into SL ?
Jack Sondergaard: no, not yet
Jack Sondergaard: I suppose it's planned for the integration of web pages into SL, it that right?
Naedo Goff: yes
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes, and i can see how data streams could be brought in and affect objects here
Naedo Goff: they're embedding gecko, the core of firefox
Jack Sondergaard: and if you start thinking about integrating Amazon, Ebay, Skype, and Google Earth into a 3D environment, it will be interesting
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes, that's what is slowly happening here, i believe
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I'm sure the next few years will be full of new developments
Naedo Goff: I wonder how much integration between gecko and SL is planned... just displaying the web pages should only be a start, IMO
Xcaliber Zadoq: what do u see beyond that, Naedo ?
Jack Sondergaard: you could add a new planet to Google Earth, and have a planet sized Second Life, with all sorts of links to the real Earth
Xcaliber Zadoq: wow, nice idea !
Jack Sondergaard: since web pages can link to SL, there's something
Naedo Goff: access to web data and parts of pages, (think of the greasemonkey FF extension) would make all kinds of things possible
Naedo Goff: accessing the web from SL scripts, etc
Jack Sondergaard: yes, and if the "textures" were editable, scriptable, linkable, there you could have a mix of 3D and 2D graphics
Xcaliber Zadoq: hmmm, weather in a RL location linked to a SL location,,, forex prices making hills higher or lower ,,,, avatars which accurately display acupuncture energy flows linked to biofeedback monitors in RL
Xcaliber Zadoq: i think we are just at the Model T stage,
Xcaliber Zadoq: to compare the internet to cars
Jack Sondergaard: definitely
Naedo Goff: a relatively simple example would be an SL store that blends into the world (ie. doesn't look like a web page) that builds itself from a web site
Jack Sondergaard: and as computers get faster, and languages better, the changes will accelerate
Xcaliber Zadoq: i guess a question is,,,, do we want to be a visionary of the far future,,,, or pick what's next and develop that
Jack Sondergaard: yes, pick up and examine the merchandise, and buy it right there, track shipments on Google Earth
Jack Sondergaard: both
Jack Sondergaard: plan way out there, then pick small steps to move in that direction
Naedo Goff: you've gotta know what you're working towards :-)
Xcaliber Zadoq: surely someone by now has impltemented a SL store, where one buys RL stuff and has it shipped Fedex, yes ?
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes, keep the vision...
Naedo Goff: sure, but you have to build every part of the SL store by hand, it won't update itself or anything
Jack Sondergaard: yes, where I work, management is a slave to the stock market and can't seem to see the long term effects of bad decisions and planning
Xcaliber Zadoq: i see
Jack Sondergaard: about 15 years ago, I was working as a security gaurd at ToysRUs, and imagined a virtual store where you could pick up the merchandise, open it, read the warantees, look at the patents, explore it all the way down to the molecular structure
Jack Sondergaard: and be walking and chatting with others who would see you, but they would be shopping at the store of their choice, so each of you would see a different environment
Jack Sondergaard: the 1990 book Mirror Worlds, described some things similar to that
Xcaliber Zadoq: there is a programmer in SL that has made something close to this
Xcaliber Zadoq: One sees a large,,,, looks like a crystal ball
Xcaliber Zadoq: click on it, and one goes inside,,,
Xcaliber Zadoq: and has a panoramic 360 degree view
Xcaliber Zadoq: in all directions
Laidbare Woebegone: Aden Qin
Xcaliber Zadoq: that's him
Laidbare Woebegone: adenorique
Laidbare Woebegone: I believe
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes
Jack Sondergaard: I have heard the name
Jack Sondergaard: I had some crystal balls by Nox
Xcaliber Zadoq: i don't know what NOx is
Jack Sondergaard: unfortunitely, I gave them away, Nox was a store
Jack Sondergaard: that sold these glass globes with animated scenes inside
Jack Sondergaard: with 3D sound and everything
Jack Sondergaard: really neat
Xcaliber Zadoq: i want one !
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I wish our avatars could adjust in size, so you could build dollhouses, and go inside them
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes, me too
Laidbare Woebegone: I have seen someone who made really tiny avs
Laidbare Woebegone: Like doll size
Xcaliber Zadoq: or change to just a point of light, to have pure intellectual discussions
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have a child avatar
Laidbare Woebegone: X - but in a way, we are already
Xcaliber Zadoq: points of light ?
Jack Sondergaard: yes, you don't have to mimic reality
Laidbare Woebegone: Yes.
Laidbare Woebegone: You are on monitor
Laidbare Woebegone: you are just seeing points of light
Laidbare Woebegone: on a surface.
Jack Sondergaard: you could have purely mathematical visuals
Laidbare Woebegone: No one here lookslike their av.
Xcaliber Zadoq: what ??? U mean,,,, this isn't ..... REAL ???
Jack Sondergaard: I sure don't
Laidbare Woebegone: One day. When client is OS'ed, someone will make skin like that
Jack Sondergaard: well I meant human looking, and the environment looking similar to the world
Naedo Goff: like that rendering mod for quake that could render the game as a sketch, or a blueprint, etc
Jack Sondergaard: that is reasurring, and makes it easy to relate quickly, but you could make it look like anything you could imagine
Naedo Goff: complete freedom is intimidating for most people though...
Xcaliber Zadoq: you're right. These chairs, this room, all reassuring ....
Xcaliber Zadoq: except that white light that passes by, which is kinda annoying ... : - )
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes, i want to explore
Jack Sondergaard: at our science museum here, I once put on a spacesuit, and walked out the airlock into a simulation of another planet, it was really neat
Xcaliber Zadoq: complete freedom
Xcaliber Zadoq: science museum in SL or RL /
Xcaliber Zadoq: ?
Jack Sondergaard: RL
Xcaliber Zadoq: cool
Jack Sondergaard: but you could do that here, have a science museum
Jack Sondergaard: and the models could teleport you to large sized exhibits
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes, you could adjust the physics to replicate the moon's gravity,
Jack Sondergaard: yes, with scripting
Laidbare Woebegone: ideally would be able to tweak the sims' values
Laidbare Woebegone: like with estate tools
Laidbare Woebegone: that would be sweet
Xcaliber Zadoq: yes, is it possible to turn gravity off in SL ?
Laidbare Woebegone: not yet
Jack Sondergaard: you could teach almost anything here, just don't call it "education"
Jack Sondergaard: I have an attachment that does
Xcaliber Zadoq: an attachment that turns off gravity ?
Jack Sondergaard: it actually has negative gravity, you have to keep flying down to stay in the same place
Laidbare Woebegone: maybe negates on you
Xcaliber Zadoq: very cool
Laidbare Woebegone: but not sim
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I can give you one
Xcaliber Zadoq: really? Thank you !
Xcaliber Zadoq accepted your inventory offer.
Naedo Goff: being able to affect a certain range around an object would be cool
Jack Sondergaard: so you want one Naedo?
Xcaliber Zadoq: Nice ! i think i'll wear it later, or i might exit prematurely by accident. Thanks Jack.
Naedo Goff: ooh, yes please :-)
Naedo Goff accepted your inventory offer.
Naedo Goff: thx
Xcaliber Zadoq: so now we can fly way up to those inaccessable levels
Jack Sondergaard: yes, to any height
Laidbare Woebegone: there are flight attachments
Xcaliber Zadoq: wow !
Naedo Goff: it's an inanimate carbon rod! ;-)
Laidbare Woebegone: like cyberflight feather
Xcaliber Zadoq: i wonder what the max height in SL is ....
Laidbare Woebegone gave you Cyberflight.
Jack Sondergaard: I think I have gone somewhere around 1000 meters
Jack Sondergaard: also in my helicopter
Xcaliber Zadoq: thanks, Laidbare
Xcaliber Zadoq: what i like most about SL is that we can program.....
Xcaliber Zadoq: we aren't stuck totally in someone else's program
Laidbare Woebegone: yes
Xcaliber Zadoq: Theodor Nelson writes about this
Jack Sondergaard: yes
Xcaliber Zadoq: that Apple took away PROGRAMMING from users
Jack Sondergaard: about not being locked out of the system
Xcaliber Zadoq: Yes. web pages are based on paper simulation, but they will become much more ,,,,
Jack Sondergaard: I have several Amigas, don't use now, but they were fantastically configurable to the user's desires
Naedo Goff: Laidbare, was there supposed to be more than a readme there?
Jack Sondergaard: what was the name of what you gave me, cyber something?
Naedo Goff: cyberflight
Jack Sondergaard: cyberflight, I found it
Laidbare Woebegone: Oooops
Laidbare Woebegone: Sorry
Laidbare Woebegone: Was it only the read me?
Naedo Goff: that's all I see
Naedo Goff: thx
Laidbare Woebegone: Flight Feather
Laidbare Woebegone: You wear it
Laidbare Woebegone: it iwill appear on your HUD
Laidbare Woebegone: it's an open script
Laidbare Woebegone gave you Flight Feather.
Jack Sondergaard: thanks
Xcaliber Zadoq: test
Xcaliber Zadoq: what does it do ?
Laidbare Woebegone: lets you fly high
Xcaliber Zadoq: ok, ,,,
Jack Sondergaard: so, do you just use the page up and down keya
Jack Sondergaard: keys
Laidbare Woebegone: yes
Xcaliber Zadoq: nice !
Jack Sondergaard: if you want, we can teleport to the underwater house I have about 300 meters straight above us
Xcaliber Zadoq: let's do it !
Jack Sondergaard: the walls are translucent, and the roof, phantomed
Xcaliber Zadoq: i bumped on your floor
Jack Sondergaard: just made a sunset too
Xcaliber Zadoq: when i was using the Flight Feather
Can't enter parcel, not on access list.
Jack Sondergaard: I went over 1000 meters high, and stopped at the Space Shuttle on the way back down
Laidbare Woebegone: heheh
Naedo Goff: heh, I just went to about 800
Jack Sondergaard: thanks, that works better than the Flight rod I have been using
Laidbare Woebegone: YEs
Naedo Goff: not a lot to see straight up from here
Laidbare Woebegone: Flight rod V old
Laidbare Woebegone: and some dispute about the 'rights' with it
Laidbare Woebegone: Argent Stonecutter makes cyberflight
Laidbare Woebegone: visit his land to get newest
Jack Sondergaard: I've heard of him
Jack Sondergaard: I used to own some underwater land and had this place there
Jack Sondergaard: there are all sorts of things you could do in SL that haven't been done yet
Laidbare Woebegone: yeah. THere are some
Jack Sondergaard: but of course, not just in SL, but things in general that haven't been done in software
Jack Sondergaard: no matter how fast hardware gets, there will be ways to use it to the maximum
Jack Sondergaard: you could capture all the movements of objects and avatars here, re-render them into a big screen feature film
Jack Sondergaard: and as the personal computers get better, this will be indistinguishable from a big screen movie
Jack Sondergaard: but you will be one of the actors in an ad-libbed movie
Naedo Goff: like RL, but with flying and teleporting ;-)
Jack Sondergaard: it's already like that in many ways
Jack Sondergaard: when I first got in SL, I had dreams of being here, and when I woke up, I sometimes didn't know whether I had been dreaming or was here
Jack Sondergaard: the fact that I was missing a lot of sleep helped, too
Naedo Goff: heh, I haven't gotten into SL that much yet... I've played games lite that though
Jack Sondergaard: I used to work in a game room about 25 years ago
Jack Sondergaard: after playing video games for hours and walking outside at night, I would sometimes still see the games, like a HUD. It was weird.
Jack Sondergaard: fortunately, I was walking home, not driving
Naedo Goff: yeah, one bad idea is trying to drive after playing a bunch of GTA: Vice City
Laidbare Woebegone: heheh
Jack Sondergaard: I played Night Driver, fasted game I have ever seen
Jack Sondergaard: I once got up to 450 mph
Jack Sondergaard: when you got over 400, the screen just became a blur, but I had the course memorized
Jack Sondergaard: I could only play 10 minutes at a time, and then needed to rest
Jack Sondergaard: I would like to see some new games that fast
Naedo Goff: burnout is fast and fun... not 450mph fast, but it is fun
Jack Sondergaard: but you would have to have a very sturdy steering wheel
Jack Sondergaard: I'm trying to learn Python and ActionScript now, but will get into LindenLanguage soon
Jack Sondergaard: I want to see what is possible with it
Naedo Goff: I'm hoping that the SL backend switch to mono will make other languages available
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I would like to use Rebol here
Naedo Goff: eventually, anyway
Naedo Goff: python or ruby would be nice
Laidbare Woebegone: Hmm
Laidbare Woebegone: Bedtime for me
Jack Sondergaard: yes, there is a Rebol plugin for Windows only so far, so maybe that could at least run in Firefox
Laidbare Woebegone: Nice meeting you all
Jack Sondergaard: thanks for coming
Naedo Goff: seeya Laidbare :-)
Laidbare Woebegone: rk
Laidbare Woebegone: tk
Jack Sondergaard: can I have your permission to put our chat on the hyperworld's website?
Naedo Goff: you've got mine, anyway
Jack Sondergaard: I sent him an IM too
Jack Sondergaard: thanks, anything else you want to talk about tonight?
Naedo Goff: nothing in particular, I just enjoy the geeky chats :s)
Jack Sondergaard: me too
Jack Sondergaard: now that I have a better flying attachment, I will have to do some more exploring of the skys above SL
Naedo Goff: yeah, that's going to make things easier
Jack Sondergaard: yes, it doen't go too far horizontally either
Jack Sondergaard: I wish there was some very fine grained control of walking
Jack Sondergaard: it is hard to go up a stairs
Naedo Goff: I just went straight up and came right back down on the same spot
Jack Sondergaard: I use my Mini-Map when flying
Naedo Goff: who needs stairs in SL? I mean, why even build them? (I know, people want familiar...)
Naedo Goff: I'd like finer flying controls
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I don't build them, but often have to use those made by others
Jack Sondergaard: definitely
Jack Sondergaard: an analog joystick would be nice too
Naedo Goff: ever used a spaceorb controller?
Jack Sondergaard: with 3 axis movement and 2 axis rotation
Jack Sondergaard: no
Naedo Goff: it was a neat game controller... I still have one in a box here somewhere
Jack Sondergaard: 3 axis rotation I mean
Naedo Goff: basically a ball that you move and twist and turn to move your character
Jack Sondergaard: that would be nice
Naedo Goff: it was really cool in a game called descent... it was like you were holding your ship in your hand
Jack Sondergaard: wow
Jack Sondergaard: there are a lot of possibilities for vehicles here
Jack Sondergaard: like a bulldozer for land work
Naedo Goff: if you google spaceorb, there's an old 3dgamers review of it
Jack Sondergaard: OK
Naedo Goff: from 1997... that's when I was using mine
Jack Sondergaard: or tall cranes for building skyscrapers
Naedo Goff: how would the crane be useful?
Jack Sondergaard: maybe build parts on the ground and just for fun mainly use it to lift them up and add them to the building, not so much to make it faster, but just for fun
Jack Sondergaard: there was some discussion on the forum about making sound more spacially controllable
Jack Sondergaard: that way you could have apartments and skyscrapers and arcologies, and the chat would be confined to individual rooms
Naedo Goff: neat
Jack Sondergaard: or tables at a coffee shop
Naedo Goff: have you seen the letterboxing hud?
Jack Sondergaard: no
Naedo Goff: the author just gave me one... want a copy?
Jack Sondergaard: sure
Naedo Goff gave you Letterboxer (aspect:1.85, subtitles).
Jack Sondergaard: do I just wear it?
Naedo Goff: yes
Naedo Goff: it's widescreen
Naedo Goff: and shows the chat like subtitles
Jack Sondergaard: oh, I see
Jack Sondergaard: very nice
Jack Sondergaard: switching to full screen
Jack Sondergaard: this is more like a movie now
Naedo Goff: yeah, pretty neat
Jack Sondergaard: yes, nice
Jack Sondergaard: I need to try making some more houses, so far this is the only thing I have made
Naedo Goff: I've been sort of waiting for the linux client to advance a bit before I get too involved with SL
Jack Sondergaard: how complete is it?
Naedo Goff: I do want to get into building and scripting though
Naedo Goff: it works ok, but no sound, no shortcut keys, no uploading, some (minor) annoying bugs
Jack Sondergaard: I hope they get rid of the 10 meter prim limit
Naedo Goff: that would be handy
Jack Sondergaard: at least 50 would be better
Jack Sondergaard: I had this house in a vendor once
Jack Sondergaard: I just shrunk it down to model size and floated it in the air
Jack Sondergaard: you could zoom in and look inside, one of the walls was also removed
Naedo Goff: neat
Jack Sondergaard: it looked just like the big one when you zoomed in
Jack Sondergaard: I could make doll houses
Jack Sondergaard: just make them full sized and shrink them down
Jack Sondergaard: Cape Canaveral would be fun to model
Naedo Goff: I can't even decide what I want to build...
Jack Sondergaard: make some reall impressive special effects for lift-offs
Naedo Goff: that would be cool
Jack Sondergaard: yes, or a bullet train
Jack Sondergaard: I wish it was possible to build underground here
Naedo Goff: one thing I'd like to try is things like catapults and trebuchets... but for people to ride
Jack Sondergaard: I would like something like Carlsbad Caverns
Jack Sondergaard: yes, I have ridden a small train here
Jack Sondergaard: and a one car trolley
Naedo Goff: I'd like to see underground building too
Naedo Goff: what happens if you build a house or something and sink it into the ground?
Jack Sondergaard: I might try a supporting pole under this and attach an outside glass elevator to it
Naedo Goff: does it just go back to your inventory?
Naedo Goff: that would be cool
Jack Sondergaard: I don't know, but I will try it now
Jack Sondergaard: well, that is sunk 10 meters into the ground
Jack Sondergaard: so maybe it will work
Naedo Goff: can you make it bigger and hollow and jump in?
Naedo Goff: awwww
Second Life: Your object 'Object' went off the world at <22.49,23.48,171.42> in Takalo. You can find it in your lost and found folder.
Jack Sondergaard: oops, just lost it
Naedo Goff: heh
Jack Sondergaard: can't seem to find it
Jack Sondergaard: when I hollowed it, the land could still be seen in the middle
Naedo Goff: yead
Naedo Goff: doesn't seem like it would work
Jack Sondergaard: so I don't think it will be possible to go inside with excavation
Jack Sondergaard: so I guess you would have to dig, build a house, and cover it with prims that look like the ground
Naedo Goff: yeah
Naedo Goff: anyway, I've gotta go, Jack...
Jack Sondergaard: OK, me too, thanks for coming
Naedo Goff: time for sleep loon
Jack Sondergaard: see you next time
Naedo Goff: argh, silly dvorak
Naedo Goff: seeya
Jack Sondergaard: OK, I started learning dvorak again, need to get back to it
Jack Sondergaard: bye
Naedo Goff: bye